[2022-01-22]巴基斯坦防务论坛：印度专家称“印度将用几十年的时间赶上中国的军事实力”

beijingwalker
“India will take decades to catch up with China's military capabilities.“ Prof. Harsh V. Pant

“印度将用几十年的时间赶上中国的军事实力。”——Harsh V. Pant教授

MultaniGuy
Haha, what a joke.
India will never catch up to China.
India's economy is much less than China's.

哈哈，笑死个人。
印度永远赶不上中国。
印度的经济远远低于中国。

Riz
So supaa pawaaa india still needs decades to catch up chines junk failed weapons?? shameful , shameless Endia

所以，超级大国(supaa pawaa)印度仍然需要几十年才能赶上中国的破烂武器？？真丢脸啊，不要脸的印度

SIPRA
India's "Khoti Rairhi" will ultimately overtake Chinese "bullet train".

印度的“Khoti Rairhi(神圣手推车)”最终将超过中国的“高速列车”。

Deino
Not only decades but even more a radical change, vast sums of funds and a system that not constantly changes the requirements for certain systems under development

不仅是几十年，更重要的是根本性的变化，庞大的资金和一个对某些正在开发的系统的需求不会不断变化的系统

GumNaam
wrong. india would've taken decades to catch up to China 20 years ago. now, it just can't catch up to China. it would be a foolhardy attempt to try.

错了。20年前，印度可能要花上几十年才能赶上中国。现在，它确实赶不上中国。这会是一种鲁莽的尝试。

Solidify
A.I. has integrated inside Indian Army

人工智能已经整合到印度军队了

SecularNationalist
If real indian intelligence makes you shoot your own chopper and kill six ,imagine how artificial one will be like.

如果真正的印度智能让你射击自己的直升机，并杀死六个人，想象一下人工的会是什么样子。

Solidify
Good point.

不错的观点。

Leishangthem
" catch up" like China is gonna sit for Indian snail speed to approach their advances.

“赶上”说得好像中国要坐等印度以蜗牛的速度接近他们的进步。

StraightEdge
Been looking at your responses throughout, I sometime wonder are you actually Indian or just trolling with false flags? Everyone seems to point good and bad about their own country, but you seem to never point anything good but always critical and mocking. I remember you mentioned you are from NE (manipur, IIRC). But I highly doubt that. I was born and studied in NE, I can't comprehend your responses of always trolling India.

我一直在看你(楼上)的回复，有时候我想知道你是真的印度人还是只是用假国旗在喷？每个人似乎都在指出自己国家的好与坏，但你似乎从不指出任何好的东西，而总是批评和嘲笑。我记得你说过你来自东北邦(如果我没记错的话，是曼尼普尔邦)。但我对此高度怀疑。我出生在东北邦，并在那里学习，我无法理解你的反应总是喷印度。

faithfulguy
So you are a NE Dalit. Or are you a high caste settler from mainland India?

那么你是一个东北邦的贱民(达利特人)，还是一个来自印度大陆的高种姓移民？

mazeto
He is a pakka manipuri, not false flag. Most Indians don't know that the strongest feeling for Independence is in Manipur, not Kashmir or Nagaland as they suppose. A major cause of Kashmiri separatism is religion, as in not wanting to live under a kuffar. A large number of their fighters are religious warriors from abroad. They wouldn't mind living under a Muslim india.
Similarly Naga insurgency partly derives from their Christian identity. Still they are negotiating autonomy within india.
In contrast notice Meitei insurgents typically don't care to negotiate on anything other than independence? They are based in a small valley eminently suitable for COIN operations but still manage to thrive there.
Hence Manipuri independence movement is the purest independence movement in India. This may help explain this posters response.

他是一个曼尼普尔乡巴佬，不是假国旗。大多数印度人不知道，曼尼普尔邦对独立最强烈，而不是他们所认为的克什米尔或那加兰邦。克什米尔分裂主义的一个主要原因是宗教，比如不想生活在异教徒之下。他们的许多战士是来自国外的宗教战士。他们不介意生活在穆斯林统治的印度之下。
同样，那加叛乱一定程度源于他们的基督教身份，尽管如此，他们仍在印度内部谈判自治权。
相比之下，请注意，曼尼普尔叛乱分子除了独立之外，通常不愿意就任何问题进行谈判？他们的基地位于一个非常适合反叛乱行动的小山谷，但仍然设法发展壮大。
所以，曼尼普尔的独立运动是印度最纯粹的独立运动，这可能有助于解释这人的反应。

Shotgunner51
Good to know, I guess a lot of people like me have limited knowledge about complexity of India. Are these people (regions), say Manipur, Kashmir, Naga and Meitei (pls correct me if I've used wrong vocab) hostile towards China like the typical group (or mainstream like you've described)?

很高兴了解，我想很多像我一样的人对印度的复杂性知之甚少。这些人(地区)，比如说曼尼普尔，克什米尔，那加和美泰(如果我用错了词请纠正我)，是否像典型的群体(或者像你描述的主流群体)一样对中国怀有敌意？

mazeto
Manipur/Meitei describe the same area. They were a warlike people who previously even sacked Yangon( Burma). The Nagas are spread across India and Burma. A little secret: mongoloid people in India, even those without any animosity towards India, "look-up" to the achievements of Asian nations like China or Japan. Maybe because we are a minority in a sea of a billion Indians of a different race and civilization.On top most claim descent from China ( this even when China was a peasant country).So even at a instinctive level they will have a soft corner for China.
Politically they will naturally gravitate to the Chinese orbit in the event of gaining independence..even if only to defend themselves from India.
Kashmiri are Northern Indians of caucasoid descent. I have no idea of their natural inclinations re Chinese.
But i will tell this, a lot of Indians genuinely respect China for its achievements, and are non-judgemental re they system, culture or religion. This huge constituency is buried in the ugly rhetoric that a minority from both sides are stirring up. Chinese also should not become too arrogant in its success, lest it become like the Japanese who peaked too soon.

曼尼普尔/美泰表示的是同个地区。他们是好战的民族，甚至曾经洗劫过仰光(缅甸)。那加人分布在印度和缅甸。一个小秘密：印度的蒙古族人，即使是那些对印度没有任何敌意的人，都“敬仰”中国或日本等亚洲国家的成就。也许是因为我们在十多亿不同种族和文化的印度庞大人口中是少数。最重要的是，大多数人声称自己是中国的后裔(即使中国还是一个农民国家的时候)。所以，即使在本能的层面上，他们对中国也会抱有好感。
在政治上，一旦获得独立，他们自然会被吸引到中国的范围之内... 即使只是为了保护自己不受印度的侵害。
克什米尔人是高加索血统的北印度人，我不知道他们对中国人的自然感觉。
但我要说的是，很多印度人真心尊重中国的成就，对他们的制度、文化或宗教不作评判。这一庞大的选民群体被双方少数人挑起的丑陋言论所淹没。中国人也不应该对自己的成功过于傲慢，以免变得像日本人那样过早达到顶峰。

peagle
India was never a single entity, never in its history. All the ethnic groups are vastly different to each other, with different culture, languages, foods, and even religious festivals. Europe has far deeper historical integration then India has ever had, they do not make silly claims of a historic nation.
China is over 90% Han Chinese due to historical nation building process, No ethnic group in India comprises more then 10% of the population. India was always a name to describe a region, it had no association with a country or a nation.
It was a British regional colony of India and it came into existence in 1947. It inherited the British-India legacy because the modern world is based on legal principles, it was just a legal process, it had no historical aspect.

印度从来都不是一个单一的实体，在其历史上也是。不同的民族有着不同的文化，语言，食物，甚至宗教节日。欧洲的历史融合程度比印度深得多，他们不会愚蠢地宣称自己是一个历史悠久的国家。
由于历史上的国家建设进程，中国90%以上是汉族人，印度没有一个民族的人口超过10%。印度一直是一个用来描述地区的名称，它与国家或民族没有任何联系。
它是英国在印度的地区殖民地，于1947年成立。它继承了英属印度的遗产，因为现代世界是以法律原则为基础的，它只是一个法律程序，没有历史的一面。

mazeto
Kya bolna chahte ho ji? Apka desh to 1947 se pehle tha hi nehi... Does it mean it's invalid as a country as well

（译注：前面一大段印地语不知道什么意思，后面是英语）这是否意味着它作为一个国家也是无效的？

peagle
This forum uses English language as a means of communication, my post was in English, so stick with English, it's not hard to understand the basic concept.
What meaning are you searching for?
Why do you need to look for ulterior meanings from facts?
Are you so stuck in conspiracy theories?
If you dispute anything I've said, then please say so, tell me if I am wrong.
If you cannot then please don't waste my time, and grow up.

这个论坛使用英文作为交流的方式，我的帖子是用英文写的，所以坚持用英文，这基本概念不难理解。
你在寻找什么意图？
为什么你需要从事实中寻找不可告人的意图呢？
你就这么沉迷于阴谋论吗？
如果你对我所说的话有任何异议，请直说，如果我错了，请告诉我。
如果你不能，那么请不要浪费我的时间，成熟点吧。

SIPRA
China can separate these areas and people, from India, whenever it likes. It has all the capability and circumstances are ripe. If China doesn't want to do it, it is her choice and strategy.

中国可以随时将这些地区和人民从印度分离出去。它完全有能力，而且时机已经成熟。如果中国不想这么做，那是她的选择和战略。

Shotgunner51
Bro no matter what policymaker does I think it's useful for the public to know more about the enemy state especially the geographically and socially diversified ones. Some content on PDF does get translated and used in China. I bet most Chinese folks here have good knowledge about enemy states like US, Canada, Australia and such, but obviously not about India.

兄弟，不管决策者做什么，我认为让公众更多了解敌国，尤其是地理和社会多元化的敌国是很有用的。这论坛上的一些内容确实在中国被翻译和使用。我敢打赌，这里的大多数中国人对美国、加拿大、澳大利亚等敌国都很了解，但显然对印度不了解。

peagle
I once met a Hong Kong based old Chinese gentleman, when I told him I was Pakistani, he made an expressed effort to find out if I was aware of our special bond. He was visibly pleased that I knew few things. I think you are right, modern Chinese generation is different, but that's mainly because the people have been busy building their country. Now the threats are at you doorstep, they seem to be taking interest and will find out, who's a friend, and who's an enemy. And that Pakistan is beyond a friend.
America has been threatening Pakistan since the 1960s to reduce its relations with China. Pakistan was the first non communist country to start regular flights in and out of China. It was a transit route going to Japan with a stopover in China, America forced japan to stop that route so that this stopover will stop. I do not know what result that action created, so cannot provide a conclusion.

我曾经遇到过一位住在香港的中国老先生，当我告诉他我是巴基斯坦人时，他表示想知道我是否知道我们之间的特殊联系。他显然很高兴我知道一些事情。我认为你是对的，现代中国人是不同的一代，但这主要是因为人们一直在忙于建设他们的国家。现在威胁就在家门口，他们似乎很感兴趣会发现谁是朋友，谁是敌人。而巴基斯坦是超越朋友的存在。
自20世纪60年代以来，美国一直在威胁巴基斯坦，以减少与中国的关系。巴基斯坦是第一个开通进出中国定期航班的非共产主义国家。这是一条通往日本的中转线路，中途在中国停留，美国强迫日本停止这条线路，以便阻止中途停留在那。我不知道这一行动产生了什么结果，所以不能给出结论。

Shotgunner51
Yes I've similar personal experience after stationing there for a couple of years, the cultural diversity in HK is beautiful, amazing place! You can experience the same friendliness in other Mainland cities, do visit.

是的，我在香港派驻了几年后也有类似的亲身经历，文化多样性的香港是美丽的和让人惊叹的地方！你也可以在其他内地城市体验到同样的友好，可以去看看。

peagle
I have not visited Hong Kong or China, although they are on my to-do list. The nearest I have been is Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and Malaysia in that region.
I met that gentleman in the UK, at my Northern Vietnamese friends daughters birthday party, many years ago. I also used to have a work colleague from Southern Vietnam and saw the difference between the north and south, But, that's an another story for another day.

我还没有去过香港或中国大陆，虽然它们在我的待办事项清单上。我去过的最近的地方是老挝、柬埔寨、泰国和马来西亚。
很多年前，我在英国的一个北越朋友女儿的生日聚会上遇到了那位老先生。我也曾经有一个来自南越的同事，从而明白了南北之间的差异，不过，那是另外的故事了。

SIPRA
China will never allow India to gain such an edge, that it can become a threat to it's security and geopolitical interests. Before that happens, China will strike.

中国绝不会允许印度获得这样的优势，以至于成为对其安全和地缘政治利益的威胁。在此之前，中国将进行打击。

Imran Khan
and where will be china after decades?

几十年后的中国会是什么样子？

sha ah
As long as India retains its caste system, their society will remain corrupt to the core. They can never catch up with China, which promotes meritocracy. It's impossible.

只要印度保留其种姓制度，他们的社会就会继续腐败到底。他们永远无法赶上提倡任人唯贤的中国。这是不可能的。

nomi007
In India case. West need a country who can fight with china. So they are helping India,
but can India stand against China. Definitely no.
Extremism Corruption literacy and infrastructure these 4 factors need lot of time to settle.

就印度而言。西方需要一个能与中国抗衡的国家，所以他们帮助印度，
但是印度能与中国抗衡吗？绝对不行。
极端主义、腐败、识字率和基础设施，这四个因素需要很长时间来解决。

retaxis
But if one nation is growing far faster then you are, how are you going to catch them? Plus won't India be balkanised soon anyway?

但是，如果一个国家的经济增长速度比你快得多，你又怎么能赶上他们呢？再说，印度不是很快就会碎片化吗？

Wood
India does not need to catch up with China militarily. India only needs to make border skirmishes a costly exercise for China. Similar to how Pakistan has made it for India.

印度不需要在军事上赶上中国。印度只需要让边境小规模冲突成为中国代价高昂的演习就行了。类似于巴基斯坦对印度所做的。

Sainthood 101
Dude you guys really need to stop with this strategic autonomy bs if you are serious
cause if you are going to be the "little" guy- you'll need help as Israel shows

兄弟，如果你是认真的，你们这些家伙真的需要停止这种战略自主的胡说八道
因为如果你想当一个“小角色”，你就需要帮助，像以色列那样

SIPRA
They are going to fight China and cause an irreparable damage to it, by means of their "deadly" uniforms, as has been discussed, in another thread.

他们将和中国打仗，并通过他们的“致命”制服对中国造成不可弥补的伤害，正如在另一个帖子里讨论过的那样。

Wood
I agree. Strategic autonomy does not apply to countries that face a superior threat. I think India is trapped in it because of the dependence on Russian weaponry. At some point, India has to bite the bullet and move to US camp.

我同意。战略自主并不适用于那些面临更大威胁的国家。我认为印度被困其中是因为它依赖俄罗斯的武器。在某些时候，印度不得不咬紧牙关，转向美国阵营。

beijingwalker
Costly for China or India? China is holding all the cards, it's up to China to choose when and where to play them.

代价高昂，是对中国还是对印度来说的？中国拿着所有的牌，在何时何地发牌，取决于中国。

SIPRA
Yes. That is precisely the case.

是的，情况正是如此。

Wood
India should aim and build its forces to make it expensive for China.

印度应该努力建立自己的军队，让中国付出昂贵的代价。

SIPRA
Your proposition is very vague. How can India act in a way, that any skirmish becomes costly for China, and not for India? In ultimate analysis, the weaker side will have more losses than the stronger one.

你的提议很含糊。印度怎样才能使任何小规模冲突对中国而不是对印度造成损失？归根结底，弱者将比强者损失更大。

beijingwalker
Indian understanding of conflicts of attrition, the richer party will go bankrupt and the poorer one will prosper and win.

印度人对消耗性冲突的理解是，较富裕的一方会破产，而较贫穷的一方会繁荣并取得胜利。

Wood
Indian soldiers do not have adequate infrastructure in the border areas. They are not equipped with standard PPEs. In future, India needs to employ fully autonomous small weapons system to match what China already has in the border. I consider these type of incremental and achievable changes to be more important for India than trying to catch up with China on more high tech weaponry.
Today India does not inflict enough casualties on the Chinese side in skirmishes because of these more pressing problems. India should focus on that over big ticket items.

印度士兵在边境地区没有足够的基础设施。他们没有配备标准的个人防护装备。未来，印度需要使用完全自主的小型武器系统，以匹配中国在边境地区已经拥有的武器。我认为这些渐进的和可实现的改变，对印度来说比在高科技武器方面追赶中国更重要。
今天，由于这些更为紧迫的问题，印度在小规模冲突中没有给中国方面造成足够的损失。印度应该把重点放在这，而不是那些大额项目上。

SIPRA
My question is still there. How will India ensure, that in, at least, most, if not all, of such small skirmishes, China have more losses than India? Since, they are stronger; they will always have an upper hand.

我的问题还在那里。印度要如何确保，至少在大多数(如果不是全部)这样的小规模冲突中，中国的损失超过印度？因为，他们更强大，他们总是占据上风。

Wood
India at the least needs to inflict equal number of casualties for China. If Indian policy makers prioritize this, then tactical plans for achieving this can be made. Pakistan is able to do the same to India in the Indo Pak border.

印度至少需要对中国造成同等数量的损失。如果印度决策者优先考虑这一点，那么就可以制定实现这一目标的战术计划。巴基斯坦在印巴边境能够对印度做同样的事情。

OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ
Chinese method of War is very different from Russian way...
Chinese sit on top of Himalayas and have a natural barrier, excellent for their A2/AD doctrine.
They will not fight the expansive war unless it is inflicted upon them. They'll and they are set up for a no losses war with India... it will eventually dawn on Indians the perilous situation they have dug themselves into vis a China.
The infrastructure China is building ensures a swift and effective solution.
Himalaya is no longer a barrier protecting India!

中国的战争方式与俄罗斯的方式非常不同...
中国人位于喜马拉雅山之巅，有一道天然的屏障，这对他们的A2/AD战略来说，是极好的。（译注：A2/AD，反介入/区域拒止战略）
他们不会进行大规模的战争，除非是强加给他们的。他们将与印度进行一场没有损失的战争... 这场战争最终会让印度人明白，他们让自己陷入了与中国对峙的危险境地中。
中国正在建设的基础设施，确保了迅速有效的解决方案。
喜马拉雅不再是保护印度的屏障了！

Wood
No one in India is looking forward to a full scale conflict with China. Honestly, I do not understand the point in this post

印度没有人期待与中国发生全面冲突。老实说，我不明白这评论的意思

SIPRA
OK. But, I don't think that your proposal is practicable. In Galwan Clash, no firearms were used. It was all a hand-to-hand fight. India was in a position to avenge it, at some other locatìon; but it didn't. Why??? Because, I think that real issue, at hand, is of escalation. This is what precisely stops India to go beyond a certain limit, in such conflicts.

好的。但是，我不认为你的建议是可行的。在加尔旺冲突，没有使用火器。这完全是一场肉搏战。印度本来能够在其他地方报复，但它没有。为什么呢？？？因为，我认为真正面临的问题是，局势的升级。这正是阻止印度在此类冲突中，超越某个界限的原因。

Wood
We can only make suppositions about Galwan. Based on pictures, it seems like Indian troops there were not equipped with proper non lethal and protective gear. Even the numbers seemed to be lesser. I do not know for sure, but better intelligence and equipment in the area could have produced a different outcome.

我们只能对加尔万做推测。从照片上看，那里的印度军队似乎没有配备适当的非致命性和保护性装备。甚至连人数看起来都比较少。虽然我不确定，但在该地区有更好的情报和装备可能会产生不同的结果。

SIPRA
I am not talking about the outcome of the Galwan Clash. It, of course, could have been inverse. My question is then what??? Would China had remain silent, being far more powerful than India. No. It would had gone for a bigger clash. So, in final analysis, it is the clear possibility of escalation, which limits India's choices, both, of retaliation as well as severe action.

我不是在谈论加尔万冲突的结果。当然，情况有可能相反。我的问题是，然后呢？？？难道比印度强大得多的中国，会保持沉默吗？不会。这会引发一场更大的冲突。因此，归根结底，升级的可能性是显而易见的，这限制了印度报复和严厉行动的选择。

Wood
China can choose to escalate or not. India can always make it expensive for China even if India should go down in defeat. Luckily for India, the border conflict with India is not the capital military problem that China has set up for itself. So, there will be a limit to how much China wants to escalate it's conflict with India.

中国可以选择升级或不升级。即使印度失败了，印度也总能让中国付出高昂的代价。对印度来说幸运的是，与印度的边境冲突并不是中国为自己设立的主要军事问题。因此，中国想要升级与印度冲突的程度会是有限的。

OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ
False parallel or premise!
That somehow India v China dynamic equals Pakistan v India. Or that India holds the keys to escalation. Both are incorrect...
What expense are you talking about when China is already making a wartime expense on this front? China is in the process of making a battlefield conducive to it's form of warfare.
Time is the enemy of India and not a friend in this case because with time Indian position only weakens.
China is making sure of that...

错误的并列或假定！
不知为何，印度 vs 中国动态等同于巴基斯坦 vs 印度。或者是印度掌控着局势升级的关键。两种都是错误的...
当中国已经在这方面进行了战时开支的时候，你还在谈论什么开支？中国正在打造一个有利于其战争形式的战场。
在这种情况下，时间是印度的敌人，而不是朋友，因为随着时间的推移，印度的地位只会削弱。
中国正在确保这一点...

Wood
What premise?! When did I say that India will escalate? All I said was India should invest in gear that will make skirmishes expensive for China when they happen.

什么假定? ！我什么时候说过印度会升级？我只是说，印度应该投资一些装备，这些装备一旦发生小规模冲突，中国就会付出高昂的代价。

Bilal9
India currently has little or no options to make any situation "expensive" for China militarily.
Any idiot can see this.
All Indian military "gear" is more or less imported, and the Chinese make everything themselves.
To get embroiled in short or medium term skirmishes will be a drag for India economy though and India cannot survive without inexpensive Chinese products (either retail or industrial inputs).
At current juncture with precarious Indian economy this is not an option.
Best option is to diplomatically approach Chinese leadership (overtly or covertly) and negotiate for best Indian outcome.

印度目前几乎没有或根本没有任何选择，可以让中国在军事上付出“高昂的代价”。
任何白痴都看得出来。
所有的印度军事“装备”或多或少都是进口的，而中国所有的都是自己制造的。
然而，卷入短期或中期的小规模冲突，将拖累印度经济。如果没有廉价的中国产品(无论是零售还是工业投入) ，印度就无法生存。
在目前印度经济岌岌可危的情况下，这不是一个选择。
最好的选择是通过外交手段和中国领导层接触(无论是公开的还是私下的)，为印度的最好结果进行谈判。

SIPRA
Of course, I don't agree with your contention that a full-scale war with India would be very expensive for China.
In any case, your own political and military establishment, it seems, don't agree with the course, you are proposing. They are clearly trying to avoid an extensive conflict with China. That is why, 14 military commanders meeting have been held, and 15th one is being planned, apparently.
India has the capability to avenge the Galwan Clash, but it is not doing it. Obvious reason is fear of escalation.
Your political and military leadership doesn't seems to be as optimistic, as you appear to be.

当然，我不同意你的观点，即与印度全面开战将让中国付出高昂代价。
无论如何，你们自己的政治和军事机构似乎不同意你所提议的行动方式。他们显然是在试图避免与中国发生大规模的冲突。这就是为什么，已经举行了14次军事指挥官会议，而第15次会议显然正在计划之中。
印度可以报复加尔万冲突，但它没有这样做。显而易见的原因是害怕事态升级。
你们的政治和军事领导层似乎并不像你看起来那么乐观。

Wood
When did I say that a full blown conflict with China is desirable? You have started to make things up.
All I say is that India should focus on improving its border infrastructure and personal equipment to inflict equal damage to Chinese in border skirmishes. I don't think India should avenge the losses or anything.
Border troops will always hold such talks and that is welcome.

我什么时候说过与中国发生全面冲突是可取的? 你已经开始胡编乱造了。
我要说的是，印度应该专注于改善边境基础设施和个人装备，以便在边境冲突中对中国造成同样的伤害。我不认为印度应该为损失报复什么的。
边境部队会一直举行这样的会谈，这是欢迎的。

SIPRA
Alright. Go ahead and inflict damage to the Chinese, as you wish.

好吧，如你所愿，去对中国人造成伤害吧。

Wood
Thanks. Your blessing was the last thing that Indians were waiting for

谢谢，你的祝福是印度人最不想看到的

Globenim
India will ... catch up with ...
If I got a Rupee for every Indian and American article inisting that this will just magically happen without any major reforms and reinventing India from ground up.... well I could probably buy one dumpling.

印度将... 赶上...
坚信这将会奇迹般发生，而不需要任何重大改革，也不需要彻底改造，如果每一篇这样的印度和美国文章都能给我一卢比... 那么，我大概可以买一个饺子。

Bleek
Any good book recommendations on the Indo-Pak conflicts?
Preferably as neutral as possible and not regurgitated Indian propaganda

关于印巴冲突，有什么好书推荐吗？
最好是尽可能保持中立，不要印度宣传的翻版

SIPRA
I doubt, there is any single book on all Indo-Pak conflicts. On 1965 War, a good book, though I have not read it, is by LG Mehmood Ahmad (Corp Commander, Rawalpindi, during 1999 Coup); but it is not available on internet, as far as I know. Another good book, which covers both 1965 and 1971 Wars is by MG Tajjammal Hussain, entitled "The Story of My Struggle". From Indian persepective, a book by LG Harbakhsh Singh (GOC-in-C, Western Command, 1965) is a good read, about 1965 War.

我感觉可能没有任何一本关于所有印巴冲突的书。关于1965年的战争，有一本好书，虽然我没有读过，是穆罕默德·艾哈迈德(1999年政变期间，拉瓦尔品第的指挥官)写的，但据我所知，它在网上找不到。另一本涵盖1965年和1971年战争的好书是塔贾迈勒·侯赛因的《我奋斗的故事》。从印度的角度来看，哈巴什·辛格（1965年西部司令部总指挥）的书是一本关于1965年战争的好书。

peagle
There's a recent book JFK's forgotten crises, Bruce riedel.
Extremely interesting book, well worth the read. He is an India lover and Pakistan hater, so you'll need to ignore his venom towards Pakistan, few misinterpretations of historical events regarding Pakistan.
I also heard him in an interview that I have not been able to find again, that the Americans threatened China to back off via it's embassy in Poland, and readied it forces in the Philippines to show China that America will intervene if China does not back off.
The book starts with a meeting between Ayub and Kennedy, where Kennedy promised Ayub that he will not supply weapons to India without discussing with Pakistan first, this clarification was needed because Pakistan was an allied nation, and Kennedy had made anti China and pro India statements before his presidency.
When India was getting a beating In 1962, American delivered nearly a billion dollars worth of weapons right to the front lines, feeding the Indian army. And, discouraged Pakistan from attacking in return for a negotiated settlement of issues.

最近有一本书《肯尼迪的被遗忘的危机》，布鲁斯·里德尔。
非常有趣的书，非常值得一读。他热爱印度，憎恨巴基斯坦，所以你需要忽略他对巴基斯坦的敌意，以及对巴基斯坦历史事件的一些误读。
我还听过他的一次采访，那次采访我找不到了，他说，美国人通过其驻波兰大使馆威胁中国不要插手，并准备好在菲律宾的军队，向中国表明，如果中国插手，美国将进行干预。
这本书从阿尤布和肯尼迪的一次会面开始，肯尼迪在会面中向阿尤布承诺，在没有与巴基斯坦事先讨论之前，他不会向印度提供武器，这一澄清是必要的，因为巴基斯坦是盟国，并且肯尼迪在他的总统任期之前，发表了反中国和亲印度的声明。
1962年印度遭受重创的时候，美国向前线运送了价值近10亿美元的武器，为印度军队提供食物。同时，劝阻巴基斯坦不要进攻，以换取谈判解决问题。

SIPRA
Thanks. I have not read this book; but I have gone through it's some excerpts, reproduced in certain articles. Of course, it is a very important historical document, about machinations of US viz a viz China and Pakistan, in that crucial period.
Bruce is an old fox. His revelations about Nawaz Sharif, in the wake of Kargil Conflict, are also very illuminating.

谢谢。我还没有读过这本书，但我已经看过了一些摘录，在某些文章中被转载。当然，这是一份非常重要的历史文献，关于美国在那个关键时期对中国和巴基斯坦的阴谋。
布鲁斯是一只老狐狸。在卡吉尔冲突之后，他对纳瓦兹•谢里夫的披露也非常具有启发性。

peagle
I have read and heard his account of that event, when Clinton was in touch with Vajpayee whilst negotiating with Nawaz, I think they call it blackmail.
Although, I find his retelling a bit dramatic and packed with few lies to make Pakistan look bad. The most glaring stupidity being the potential for nuclear use. How the heck could nuclear weapons have even been considered when there was no full blown war. It was a border skirmish akin to the Siachen glacier conflict.
If it had turned into a full blown hot war, then one could entertain that this story might be true, depending on the war outcome, but to claim nuclear option came into play for a border skirmish is utterly stupid and people are idiots to have believed such lies.
The fact Pakistan was not losing at that time makes this story even more incredible, most of the Pakistani loses occurred while withdrawing its forces, not when the conflict was active. It is just a shame that our stupid analyst buy into sensationalism. This is the same point we discussed before, original thinking is a crime among Pakistanis.

我已经读过并听过他对那件事的描述，当时克林顿在与纳瓦兹谈判的同时，与瓦杰帕伊保持联系，我想他们称之为敲诈。
尽管如此，我还是觉得他的复述有点戏剧化，而且充满了一些让巴基斯坦看起来很糟糕的谎言。最明显的愚蠢之处是可能使用核武器。在没有发生全面战争的情况下，核武器怎么可能会被考虑在内。这是一场类似于锡亚琴冰川冲突的边界冲突。
如果它演变成一场全面的热战，那么人们可以认为这个叙述可能是真的，取决于战争的结果，但声称核选项在边境小规模冲突发挥作用是完全愚蠢的，只有白痴才相信这种谎言。
事实上，巴基斯坦当时并没有损失，这使得这个叙述更加令人难以置信，巴基斯坦的大部分损失是发生在撤军的时候，而不是在冲突爆发的时候。可耻的是我们那些愚蠢的分析师竟然相信耸人听闻的东西。这也是我们之前讨论过的，原创性思想在巴基斯坦人中是一种犯罪。

xyxmt
That is if China is sitting idle for decades

(印度军事超越中国的)前提是，中国几十年来一直无所事事

Syama Ayas
When it comes military capabilities, having economically sustainable military capabilities is a must
This is because majority of the weapons procured by nation in their lifetime will never be used and provide deterrence value in peacetime.
Here is a lesson from history regarding that
Back in 1970, when India was working towards its nuclear weapons capability, requirement came for developing an ICBM. This was known Project Valiant. Despite limited funding and technological capability DRDL decided to go head with the program until a smart DRDL Project Manager asked a very valid question to Govt representatives
"Supposing we manage acquire liquid fueled engine technology and our team manages to reverse-engineer it, will govt have finances to sustain it?" . The message was clear and given India's economic situation then and in future the project was terminated and funds diverted to ISRO
It would another 37 years later after success of SRE-1 by ISRO , which validated the most critical know how for ICBM RV, India started on Agni 5 ICBM in 2007
Majority of the missile technologies we have to today has some civilian sector purpose and makes money for the Govt, providing the necessary economic sustainment of these weapons.

说到军事能力，经济上可持续的军事能力是必须的。
这是因为国家在其一生中采购的大多数武器将永远不会使用，而是在和平时期提供威慑价值。
关于这一点有个历史教训
早在1970年，当印度致力于发展其核武器能力时，就有了发展洲际弹道导弹的需求了。这就是众所周知的“勇敢计划”。尽管资金和技术能力有限，DRDL(印度国防研究开发试验室)还是决定实施这个计划，直到一个聪明的DRDL项目经理向政府代表提出了一个非常合理的问题“假设我们设法获得了液体燃料发动机技术，并且我们的团队设法对其进行逆向工程，政府会有财政支持吗？”这个问题很明确，鉴于印度当时和未来的经济形势，该项目已经终止，资金被转用于ISRO(印度空间研究组织)
ISRO的SRE-1成功验证了洲际弹道导弹RV的最关键技术，37年之后，印度于2007年开始应用在烈火5导弹上
我们今天拥有的大多数导弹技术都有一些民用目的，并为政府赚钱，为这些武器提供必要的经济支持。
印度未来的任何军事能力最好都来自私营部门，或者至少在经济上是可持续的。

SIPRA
They tried to make it "expensive" for China, in 1962, also.

同样在1962年，他们也试图让中国付出“昂贵代价”。

SIPRA
Pakistan shall remain indepted to two Indian leaders: 1) Nehru, for opening a can of worms, with China and initiating a totally unnecessary conflict, with it 2) Modi, for reigniting the conflict, and putting his foot on the tail of dragon

巴基斯坦应该继续感激两位印度领导人：1)尼赫鲁，惹中国的麻烦，挑起了一场完全不必要的冲突；2)莫迪，重新点燃了冲突，脚踩在了龙的尾巴上。

Kamikaze Pilot
You said you read a lot on 1962 war. What were the sources? List the books and other items that you read.

你说你读过很多关于1962年战争的书。消息来源是什么？列出你读过的书和其他东西。

SIPRA
1) Dalvi 1969 Himalayan Blunder
2) Garver 2003 China's Decision for War with India in 1962
3) Hershberg 2011 Quietly Encouraging Quasi-Alignment
4) Kaul 1967 The Untold Story
5) McGarr 2011 India's Rasputin
6) Neville Maxwell 1970 India's China War
7) Neville Maxwell 2011 How the Chinese Saw the Conflict
8) Ramachandra Guha 2011 Jawaharlal Nehru and China
9) Shiv Kunal Verma 2016 1962 - The War That Wasn't

1)达尔维，1969年《喜马拉雅的错误》
2) 加弗，2003年《1962年，中国决定和印度开战》
3)赫什伯格，2011年《悄然鼓励准结盟》
4)考尔，1967年《不为人知的故事》
5)麦克加尔，2011年《印度的拉斯普京》
6)内维尔·麦克斯韦，1970年《印度的中国战争》
7)内维尔·麦克斯韦，2011年《中国人如何看待这场冲突》
8)拉马钱德拉·古哈，2011年《贾瓦哈拉尔·尼赫鲁和中国》
9)希夫·库纳尔·维尔马，2016年《1962年——那不是战争》