[2021-12-02]巴防论坛：巴基斯坦与中国签署巨额高速客运列车合同

CRRC Tangshan @PakrailPK #Signed a contract for 230 high-speed passenger trains, including 80 economic trains, 80 air-conditioned standard trains & 30 lounge-type trains.will run at 160km/h&uses at 1,676mm wide-gauge bogie. symbol of international friendly cooperation under BRI

（图片内容）中车唐山和巴基斯坦铁路局正式签署了230列高速客运列车合同，其中经济型列车80列，空调标准型列车80列，休息室型列车30列。将以160公里/小时的速度运行，并使用1676毫米宽轨距的转向架。是“一带一路”国际友好合作的象征。

Daniel808
I don't know about the types, will be updated soon after I found information about the types.
Probably CR-200J Fuxing Hao High Speed Train Series, like Laos Series (Kunming-Vientiane High Speed Train Network)

我不知道型号，等我找到型号的信息后会很快更新。
可能是CR-200J复兴号高速列车系列，如老挝系列(昆明-万象高速列车网)。

Big_bud
This is big news! I remember about 10 yrs back at my uni, a guest lecturer who happened to be an Ex-railways minister informed us that in Pakistan we are operating the most expensive and inefficient trains! They are ancient and are much more expensive to operate and maintain then newer ones which are faster, take less fuel and need less maintenance! Our trains were so old that we had to get parts made from international market on special order that would cost us 10 times more than a modern train! So were paying premium prices to operate jack shit British era trains!
Only if our governments had made timely investments into the railway it had not become this white elephant! Hopefully the financing of this project is on easy terms and Pakistan railways becomes lean, mean and green organisation! Great news indeed that we are replacing them all!

这可是大新闻啊！我记得大约10年前在我的大学，一位客座讲师，碰巧是前铁道部长告诉我们，在巴基斯坦，我们运营着最昂贵和效率最低的列车！它们很老旧，而且运营和维护费用更贵，相比新的列车更快，需要更少的燃料和更少的维护！我们的列车太旧了，以至于我们不得不从国际市场上以特别订单的方式购买零件，而这些零件的价格是现代列车的10倍！所以，我们付出昂贵的价格来运营垃圾的英国时代列车！
只要我们的政府对铁路及时投资，它就不会变成累赘！希望这个项目的融资条件很宽松，巴基斯坦铁路成为精简，平均和绿色的组织！真是个好消息，我们要把它们全部替换掉！

Bilal9
At least Pakistan is building all its rail coaches itself. In Bangladesh we used to import everything from India, including Rail coaches. I think our rail minister was permanently stationed in India, getting graft daily.
Nowadays we pretty much stopped importing rolling stock and locos from India as they are much more antiquated than say, Indonesian ones. Rail coaches and Public buses are all imported from Indonesia and local Rail coach manufacturing will start again in Saidpur (close to Bihar border and most workers are in fact transplanted Biharis).
PT Inka can build whatever specs you put in, but Bangladesh Railway uneducated gadhas are yet incapable of modernizing rail coach specs which dates from British empire. The world has moved way beyond this in the last seventy years, even for low speed rail coaches.

至少巴基斯坦自己正在建设所有的铁路列车。在孟加拉国，我们过去从印度进口一切东西，包括铁路客车。我认为我们的铁道部长长期驻扎在印度，每天都在收受贿赂。
如今，我们几乎不再从印度进口列车了，因为它们比印尼的列车老旧得多。铁路列车和公共汽车都是从印尼进口的，当地的铁路列车制造业将在赛伊德布尔重新启动(靠近比哈尔邦边境，大多数工人实际上是移居的比哈尔邦人)。
印尼铁路工业公司可以制造任何规格的产品，但是孟加拉铁路未受过教育的人力，还不能对可以追溯到大英帝国的铁路车厢进行现代化改造。在过去的七十年里，已经远远落后于世界了，甚至对于低速铁路客车来说也是如此。

fitpOsitive
Very nice. Pak railways alone has potential more than the whole economies of many countries.
But some places where pak railways can improve: timings, booking, safety, and better treatment of rail staff.

非常好。仅巴基斯坦铁路的潜力，就超过许多国家的整体经济。
但是，巴基斯坦铁路可以改进的地方有：时间、订票、安全，以及铁路工作人员更好的待遇。

ARMalik
But are there TRACKS READY FOR THIS??

但是已经有现成的轨道了吗？

Bilal9
Broad Gauge tracks in Pakistan are naturally suited for these high speed trains, as those tracks are built on solid dry ground AFAIK. I don't know if Chinese high speed trains use broad gauge track (probably standard gauge), but when CRRC builds these trains they can be built to Broad gauge for Pakistan. Sometimes trains can be re-gauged too. Bangladesh received meter gauge freight locomotives which they plan to re-gauge to broad gauge at some point.
One crucial point in relation to your query is that high speed trains make frequent track maintenance a must, unlike slow freight trains which can run on wavy poorly maintained track.
High speed trains typically need heavy duty track installed on solid cement substrate, no ties or ballast are used.
Track geometry is also important i.e. super elevated track around wider bends.
I am seeing a lot of comments that refer to freight trains, which is a completely different animal.
This is a high speed Passenger train. The US does not have high speed trains. They have some medium speed trains (maybe 120~150 MPH around the East Coast) but most US passenger trains are slow and do not exceed 100 MPH.

巴基斯坦的宽轨铁路自然就适合这些高速列车，因为这些轨道是建立在坚实干燥的地面上。我不知道中国的高速列车是否使用宽轨(可能是标准轨距)，但是当中国中车制造这些列车时，它们可以为巴基斯坦建造宽轨。有时列车也可以重新测量。孟加拉国收到了米轨货运机车，他们计划在某一时刻将其重新调整为宽轨。
与你的问题有关的一个关键点是，高速列车必须经常进行轨道维护，而慢速货运列车则不同，它可以在维护不善的波浪状轨道上运行。
高速列车通常需要在固体水泥基质上安装重型轨道，不使用轨枕或道碴。
轨道的几何形状也很重要，比如在较宽的弯道附近的超高外轨。
我看到很多评论都提到货运列车，这是一种完全不同的类型。
这是高速客运列车。美国没有高速列车。他们有一些中速列车(在东海岸可能是120~150英里每小时的速度)，但大多数美国的客运列车都很慢，不超过100英里每小时。

ARMalik
Thanks mate - very well explained.

谢谢兄弟，解释得很好。

Daniel808
There is still no info, but from Pakistani side they said this Train will goes to 160km/h.
Maybe there will be some Upgradation of Railway Network in Pakistan under BRI (Belt & Road Initiative) Projects

目前还没有消息，但是从巴基斯坦方面的消息称，这辆列车的时速将达到160公里。
在“一带一路”项目下，巴基斯坦铁路网可能会有一些升级改造

mudas777
Last time i read was it was 180 to 220 km/h if i am not mistaken.

如果我没记错的话，我上次读到的时速是180公里到220公里。

Aspen
That would be good news

这会是个好消息

Aspen
BRO THIS IS MAJOR NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

兄弟，这可是大新闻啊！！！！！！

Jungibaaz
Any further details? This seems too good to be true (I hope it is true)? The cost is surely something phenomenally high.

有进一步的细节吗？这似乎好得不像真的(我希望是真的)？成本肯定是非常高的。

Aspen
I have seen these trains in China, dude if we get this in Pakistan, it is total game changer for us.

我在中国看到过这些列车，兄弟，如果我们在巴基斯坦能看到这种列车，对我们来说，它将彻底改变游戏规则。

Goenitz
I hope we get trained and repair everything here. Else, it will be a white elephant like metro bus

我希望我们能在这里接受培训，并修复一切。否则，它就会像地铁巴士一样，成为累赘

Beast
Freight rapidly ship goods from Gwadar port to Xinjiang region. Offering inland Xinjiang goods an opportunity to ship rapidly to rest of the world.
After the Laos HSR and Vietnam Metro success. It is starting to see an ripple effect. Next mega project to unveil will be complete of Jakarta - Bandung HSR.

货物从瓜达尔港快速运往新疆地区。为新疆内陆货物提供了一个快速运往世界其他地区的机会。
在老挝高铁和越南地铁取得成功之后。开始看到连锁反应了。下一个将要揭露的大型项目将是雅加达-万隆高铁。

FuturePAF
ML-1 upgrade and a rail link to Xinjiang should be focused first and foremost on freight transport, to help recoup the investment and minimize the burden on the Pakistani taxpayers. A rail route like this would revolutionize freight transport to Central Asia and allow Chinese investors to set up factories in Western China know long they will get raw materials from Africa at an affordable price via this route.

ML-1升级和通往新疆的铁路应该首先关注货运，以帮助收回投资，并将巴基斯坦纳税人的负担降到最低。像这样的铁路将彻底改变通往中亚的货运，让中国投资者在中国西部建立工厂，他们知道，通过这条铁路，他们将以合理的价格从非洲获得原材料。

jamal18
160 km/h is not high speed.
I believe that the most important part of 'high speed' is the track, not the trains.

160公里/小时不算高速。
我相信”高速“最重要的部分是轨道，而不是列车。

Enigma SIG
I want to reach Karachi from Lahore in less than 5 hours.
By Train.
Is this too much to ask?

我想在5小时内从拉合尔到达卡拉奇。
乘坐列车。
这个要求会过分吗？

Daniel808
Karachi to Lahore distance is almost the same with Beijing-Shanghai distance.
They use CR-400AF/BF Fuxing Hao HSR Series for that network with Daily Operating Speed of 350Km/h. If you taking non-stop train it will be 3 hours 58 minutes, with stop it's 4 hours 18 minutes
Facing the Future, if you want using Maglev Train it will be less than 2 hours

卡拉奇到拉合尔的距离和北京-上海的距离几乎相同。
他们使用CR-400AF/BF复兴号高铁系列，该网络日运行速度为350公里/小时。如果你乘坐直达列车，时间为3小时58分钟，中途停靠的话是4小时18分钟。
面向未来，如果你想乘坐磁悬浮列车，只需不到2小时。

Hassan Guy
Unfortunately the similarities between both countries largest cities end there.
Is there enough civil air traffic between Lahore and Karachi that would make a passenger rail line profitable?

遗憾的是，这两个国家最大的城市之间的相似之处仅此而已。
拉合尔和卡拉奇之间是否有足够的民用航空交通让客运铁路盈利？

Aspen
It will become reality soon Inshallah

这很快就会成为现实，安拉保佑。

Falconless
So we promise to buy Chinese rolling stock to finally begin work on ML-1?

所以我们承诺购买中国机车车辆，以便最后开始ML-1项目的工作？

Vapnope
So a 40ft container from Karachi to Lahore costs 140K PkR to sender, if the railways were working this cost would have been way cheaper. Successive governments deliberately or unknowingly killed a great way of logistics and passenger trains. And this has only contributed negatively to overall country, we have more pollution, more vehicles on roads, we need more maintenance fund for repair, cost of goods has increased and there are more frequent traffic jams. It would be good if we get our railways in a better shape.

从卡拉奇到拉合尔的40ft集装箱，发件人要花费14万巴基斯坦卢比(接近5100人民币)，如果这条铁路正常运营的话，这个成本就会便宜很多。历届政府都有意或无意地扼杀了一种物流和客运列车的伟大方式。这只会给整个国家带来负面影响，我们有更多的污染，更多的车辆上路，我们需要更多的维修资金，货物成本增加，交通堵塞更加频繁。如果我们能把铁路改造得更好，那就太好了。

arjunk
Driving at night in Karachi his hell with hundreds of giant overloaded trucks trying to murder you. Highways (esp N5) are very crowded because of large numbers of slow and overloaded trucks, some of which tip over or drop all their stuff. All of this could be fixed if we had a decent railway system.

在卡拉奇的夜晚，数百辆巨大的超载卡车试图谋杀你，这简直就是地狱。公路(尤其是N5)非常拥挤，因为有大量行驶缓慢且超载的卡车，其中一些卡车会翻倒或掉落东西。如果我们有一个像样的铁路系统，所有这些问题都可以解决。

Pandora
You are actually wrong here. Our tracks and system cant accomodate it more than its already doing. What is criminal is that successive govt didnt upgrade 70 year old track. Now max speed is restricted to 50km any more. Until new track are laid no train can operate more than 50 kph. Also train management system is so old that more trains cant be added without risking collision.

实际上你错了。我们的轨道和系统已经不能适应它了。罪魁祸首是，历届政府都没有升级70年前的轨道。现在最高速度限制在50公里以内。在铺设新轨道之前，任何列车的时速都不能超过50公里。此外，列车管理系统非常老旧，无法在没有碰撞风险的情况下增加更多的列车。

Vapnope
I am not sure but business class train's speed is more than 50km. Though i agree with you that current tracks need an overhaul.

我不确定，但是商务舱列车的速度超过50公里。虽然我同意你的观点，现在的轨道需要彻底大修。

khail007
In general, it is encouraging news for Pakistan's travel/tourism/goods transport industry.

总体而言，这对巴基斯坦的旅游/货物运输行业，是一个令人鼓舞的消息。

American Pakistani
I truly hope it will be electric.

我真心希望它是电动的。

Reichsmarschall
I hope it's from Karachi to skurdu. It will be a massive boost for tourism

我希望是从卡拉奇到斯库尔都，这将大大促进旅游业的发展

Vapnope
There is a huge potential of trade as well.

还有巨大的贸易潜力。

Song Hong
It will be green skin CR200J for 160km/h. The real 350km/h HSR have stringent requirement on the curve radius and vertical gradient.

时速160公里，会是绿皮的CR200J。真正的350km/h高铁对曲线半径和垂直坡度有严格的要求。

Globenim
NYTCNNBBCWPJ: First class infrastructure for Pakistan, BUT AT WHAT COST!

纽约时报、CNN、BBC、华盛顿邮报：巴基斯坦的一流基础设施，但代价是什么！

Wood
Congrats. Considering the large volume of orders, will these be manufactured in Pakistan? What is the cost per train?

恭喜。考虑到大量的订单，这些会在巴基斯坦生产吗？每列火车的成本是多少？

Sainthood 101
This is supposed to be 160 range and they're changing the tracks

这应该是160公里的区间，他们正在改变轨道

imadul
ML-1 completion by 2020 or even by now would had been true game changer. It would be providing faster, safer, and economical transportation of passengers and freight and would have created thousands of jobs and huge economic activity. Originally planned $9 billion would have been a rightly invested sum.
Billions were invested on highways but ML-1 should had been first priority along with energy, and building only critical highways first.

如果ML-1在2020年或甚至现在完成，会是真正的游戏规则改变者。它将提供更快、更安全、更经济的客货运输，并将创造数以千计的就业机会和巨大的经济活动。最初计划的90亿美元是一笔合理的投资。
虽然数十亿美元投资在公路上，但是ML-1应该和能源一起优先考虑，首先只建设关键的公路。
（译注：ML-1，中巴经济走廊下的Main Line-1铁路通道项目）

imadul
Probably $45-50 billion spended on CPEC as yet. ML-1 the rail line, control network, plus related bridges, underpasses should have been built under CPEC projects.
Brand new Train cars and engine procurement is not absolute for railways to function. Carriage factory can be upgraded to make better coaches and locomotives can be bought to be assembled locally even 2nd hand locomotives could be bought.

到目前为止，大约有450-500亿美元花在了CPEC(中巴经济走廊)上。ML-1铁路线，控制网络，加上相关的桥梁，地下通道本应该是在CPEC项目下建造的。
全新的列车车厢和发动机的采购并不是铁路运行的绝对条件。车厢工厂可以升级改造，以制造出更好的车厢，可以购买机车在当地组装，甚至可以买二手机车。

Pandora
9 billion$ is a massive undertaking even for chinese. It will be done but will take time. Lets see what happens.

即使对中国人来说，90亿美元也是一项巨大的工程。这将会完成，但需要时间。让我们看看会发生什么。

FuturePAF
Once ML-1 is rebuild and Karachi and Gwadar are at capacity, then we should definitely build up other ports along the coast. But until the. We should maximize what we already have to make the projects already started self-sustaining.

一旦ML-1得到重建，卡拉奇和瓜达尔的运力达到饱和，那么我们肯定应该在沿海地区建设其它港口。但是在这之前，我们应该最大限度地利用我们已经拥有的资源，使已经开始的项目能够自我维持。

FuturePAF
Pakistan should start now, seeking investors to modernize the stations and build large commercial area (or at least links to metro systems to connect with commercial areas) and multi-modal accommodations to house a bus terminal, taxi services, and tourism centers to generate enough revenue to fund the rail construction. Hotels and apartments complexes nearby could also be attractive to overseas Pakistanis and as well as local and foreign tourists that want to visit a city and stay near a public area like a major train station.
For example, IMHO, Islamabad needs a major train station (a multi-modal one that can accommodate long range and commuter buses) of its own, one that is close to the metro bus system that will link travelers to the airport seamlessly (without having to need to move around town in a taxi and be stuck in traffic)
That is why, in order to minimize displacing as many people from their homes as possible, IMHO, military should hand over the “Central Mechanical Transport and Stores Depot” and turn that into the National Railroad station. A good part of the properties north of Quad-e-Azam International Hospital may need to be taken by Eminent domain (with owners properly compensated), but it will allow a station that can accommodate enough tracks considering the population will probably double in a generation or two (20-30 years) so best to plan for it now. Such a station could also allow commuter trains to run into Rawalpindi, allow new tracks to be laid outside of Islamabad and high speed trains to bypass Rawalpindi to keep speeds as high as possible. On new straight tracks, which would also benefit freight services.
A design like the Tianjin West Rail Station would be a good one for Pakistan to Adopt, but modified to look like Lahore Fort’s Naulakha Pavilion.
Tianjin West station has good links with the Metro and seems like a design that can accommodate a lot of passengers and services.
p.s.
160 KMPH if sustained would shorten journey times in Pakistan by more than half, especially if tracks can be grade separated and tracks fenced off from people or animals crossing it, so the train doesn’t need to slow down for these obstacles. 160 kmph is also the limit of one quality of tracks, and to go faster costs a lot more for the tracks, which is why 160 kmph is chosen by many commuter rail systems and “higher speed” rail as in the US.

巴基斯坦现在应该开始寻找投资者，对车站进行现代化改造，建设大型商业区(或至少连接地铁系统和商业区)和多式联运设施，以容纳巴士总站、出租车服务和旅游中心，创造足够的收入来资助铁路建设。附近的酒店和公寓对于海外的巴基斯坦人，以及想要参观城市并且住在主要火车站等公共区域附近的当地和外国游客来说，也很有吸引力。
例如，在我看来，伊斯兰堡需要一个属于自己的主要火车站(可以容纳长途和通勤巴士的多式联运火车站)，一个靠近地铁巴士系统的火车站，将旅客与机场无缝连接起来(而不需要乘坐出租车在城里转来转去，也不会堵车)
这就是为什么，为了尽量减少大量背井离乡的人数，在我看来，军方应该移交“中央机械运输和补给仓库”，并把它变成国家火车站。Quad-e-Azam国际医院北部的大部分房产可能需要征用(对业主适当补偿)，但考虑到人口可能在一两代(20-30年)内翻一番，所以最好现在就进行规划，这样就可以让通勤列车进入拉瓦尔品第，允许在伊斯兰堡以外铺设新铁轨，让高速列车绕过拉瓦尔品第，以尽可能保持高速。新的直线轨道也将有利于货运服务。
像天津西站这样的设计，对巴基斯坦来说是个不错的选择，但是要改造成类似拉合尔堡的瑙拉克哈亭的样子。
天津西站和地铁有很好的联系，看起来是一个可以容纳很多乘客和服务的设计。
附注：
如果保持每小时160公里的速度，在巴基斯坦的旅行时间将缩短一半以上，特别是如果轨道可以用栅栏隔开，不让人或动物通过，这样列车就不需要因为这些障碍而减速。时速160公里也是一条高质量轨道的极限，而更快的速度成本要高得多，这就是为什么许多通勤铁路系统和美国的“高速”铁路选择时速160公里的原因。

KaiserX
Great deal. Fits perfectly in with the upgrade of Pakistans railway track.
Pakistan-China cooperation has not even touched 1% of its full potential. Pakistan is the most pro-china nation today in the world. There are so many opportunities for Chinese investors to make ALOT OF $$$. Id personally love to see a Bullet Train Project from Islamabad- Karachi and running through major population center ie Rawalpindi, lahore, multan, hyderabad. This alone would give access to 100+ Million people to a bullet train many of which would be willing to pay top price to travel on such a platform. It would possibly be the best bang for the buck infrastructure project in Pakistans history and would pay for itself within 7-10 years.
I am surprised why work/research into this isnt being done.
China should also relocate all of its manufactering from India to Pakistan.

很划算，完全符合巴基斯坦铁路轨道的升级。
巴中合作甚至还没有发挥出全部潜力的1%。巴基斯坦是当今世界上最亲中国的国家。对于中国投资者来说，有很多机会可以赚到钱，我个人希望看到伊斯兰堡-卡拉奇的高速列车项目，且经过主要的人口中心，即拉瓦尔品第、拉合尔、摩尔丹、海德拉巴。仅此一项，就可以让1亿多人乘坐高速列车，其中许多人愿意花最高的价格，在这样的平台上旅行。这可能是巴基斯坦历史上最划算的基础设施项目了，7-10年内就能收回成本。
我很惊讶为什么没有人做这方面的工作/研究。
中国还应该把所有的制造业从印度转移到巴基斯坦。

Sainthood 101
I am not too sure if it's a good investment...
Not worth it imo

我不太确定这是否是一项好的投资...
在我看来不值得

Bilal9
Well how else are you going to move people around safely? Not everyone can afford air travel...
Bangladesh air travel legs are very short, half hour flight to Chittagong and Sylhet mostly served by jets, yet these destinations have several trains leaving everyday, some of them are faster express trains too. Those options for middle class people need to be there.
Indians are already planning a bullet train from Mumbai to Ahmedabad, and given everything goes right, it may replace air travel in less than two years. Eventually bullet train will go past Ahmedabad to Delhi. They still might eff it up, but at least they're trying.
I quite admire how cheap and efficient Indian rail travel is, despite the filthy tracks. You can travel in India very cheaply by rail at all different price levels (they have special trains for poor people called Gareeb Rath). That is something to emulate in Pakistan and Bangladesh (minus the filthy tracks and stations).

那么，除此之外，你还能怎样安全地转移人们呢？不是每个人都能负担得起飞机旅行的...
孟加拉航空旅行的航程很短，飞往吉大港和锡尔赫特的时间仅为半小时，大部分由喷气式飞机提供服务，但这些目的地每天都有几趟火车离开，其中一些还是更快的特快列车。中产阶级需要有这些选择。
印度人已经在计划从孟买到艾哈迈达巴德的高速列车了，如果一切顺利的话，在不到两年的时间里，它可能会取代航空旅行。最终高速列车将经过艾哈迈达巴德到达德里。虽然他们可能还会搞砸，但至少他们在努力。
我非常佩服印度铁路旅行的廉价和高效，尽管铁轨很脏。在印度你可以乘坐各种不同价位的火车旅行，非常便宜(他们有专为穷人开设的特别列车，名为加里布·拉特)。这是巴基斯坦和孟加拉国值得效仿的地方(不包括肮脏的铁轨和车站)。

Sainthood 101
Realities of Pak are not that of other South Asian countries because of population density
That's why we already have highways and busses for passengers while we should build freights trains for economy
Other South Asian and even east Asian countries absolutely needed a great passenger train system- y'all in India, Bangladesh should absolutely have a great passenger train system as in your case- that's fiscally responsible
But for us, it shouldn't be the top most priority- making it is fiscally irresponsible behavior - maybe if we had 7-15k per Capita income
We can have that luxury but not now, passenger trains should be decent not relics
But more importance was needed on freight trains- passengers can be handled by highways, buses, cars etc

由于人口密度，巴基斯坦的现实情况不同于其他南亚国家
这就是为什么我们已经有了为乘客服务的公路和巴士，同时我们也应该建造为经济服务的货运列车
其他南亚甚至东亚国家，绝对需要一个优秀的客运列车系统，就你们的情况而言，你们印度、孟加拉国绝对要有一个优秀的客运列车系统，这是财政上负责任的。
但是对我们来说，这不应该是最优先考虑的事情，这是财政上不负责任的行为，也许如果我们的人均收入是7000-15000美元，我们就可以享受这种奢侈，但不是现在，客运列车应该是体面的，而不是作为遗迹。
但需要更加重视货运火车，乘客可以通过公路、巴士、汽车等方式接送。

AZ1
but I think it will cut long distance short, tcs delivery etc goods delivery will be faster with cheaper rates.

但我认为这将缩短长途运输的时间，TCS快递等货物的交付将更快，价格更便宜。