[2020-07-10]福西：“我认为你不能说我们做的很好，我的意思是，我们没有”

For this week’s episode of PODCAST-19, we interviewed Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, and a leader in the United States’ COVID-19 response. As you’ll hear in the podcast and read in selected excerpts below, we covered a lot of ground in the 30 minutes we had to talk, including how the U.S. is doing compared to other countries, how American partisanship has influenced our recovery efforts, and how a COVID-19 vaccine might influence the future of vaccine acceptance in our country.

在本周的播客-19节目中，我们采访了安东尼·福西博士，他是美国国家过敏与传染病研究所所长，同时也是美国新型冠状病毒对策的领导者。正如你将在播客中听到的以及在下面选择的节选中读到的，我们在30分钟的谈话中涉及了很多内容，包括美国与其他国家相比的表现如何，美国的党派偏见如何影响了我们的复苏工作，以及新型冠状病毒疫苗对我国未来疫苗接受的影响。

On why we’re seeing a surge in cases:
Anna Rothschild: So are you saying that in these states, are you saying that it’s a mix of politicians not following guidelines and people not following orders?

关于为什么我们的病例不断激增：
安娜 · 罗斯柴尔德：那么你是说在这些州，政客们不遵守指导方针，人们不服从命令？

Dr. Anthony Fauci: Yes. It is both. I mean, it’s not a unidimensional thing. It’s complicated. There are some governors and mayors that did it perfectly correctly. They stayed exactly. They wanted to open up, so they went through the guidelines of opening up their state. But what happened is that many of the citizenry, said, “You know, well, I’m either going to be locked down or I’m going to let it all rip.” And you could see from just looking, documented on TV and in the papers of still photos of people at bars and congregations, which are a perfect setup, particularly if you don’t have a mask. Yeah, then there are some times when despite the guidelines and the recommendations to open up carefully and prudently, some states skipped over those and just opened up too quickly.

安东尼 · 福西博士：是的。两者都有。我的意思是，这不是单一的事情。这很复杂。有些州长和市长做得非常好。他们确实遵守了，他们想要开放，所以他们遵循了开放州的指导方针。但是事实是，许多市民说“你知道，我要么被关起来，要么就顺其自然。”你可以从电视上看到，从人们在酒吧和教堂的照片上看到，这是一个完美的传播途径，特别是如果你没有戴口罩。是的，有时候尽管有指导方针和建议谨慎开放，但一些州还是跳过了这些，开放得太快了。

AR: Do you think that Florida and Arizona opened up too quickly?

安娜：你认为佛罗里达州和亚利桑那州开放得太快了吗？

AF: You know, I think in some respects, in some cases, they did not always. But I think that that certainly is contributing to that. Certainly Florida I know, you know, I think people jumped over a couple of checkpoints.

福西：你知道，我认为在某些方面，在某些情况下，他们并不总是这样。但我认为这肯定是造成这种情况的原因之一。我当然知道佛罗里达的情况，我认为人们跨过了几个检查站。

On whether partisanship makes fighting COVID-19 more difficult:
AR You know, for a few months, masks were quite a partisan issue, though in the past few weeks politicians on both sides have advocated for their use. Do you think America’s hyperpartisan environment has made it more difficult to suppress the virus?

关于党派之争是否会让抗击新冠疫情变得更加困难：
安娜：在过去的几个月里，口罩一直是一个党派问题，尽管在过去的几周里，双方的政治家都提倡使用口罩。你认为美国的超党派环境是否让抑制这种病毒更加困难？

AF: You know, I think you’d have to admit that that’s the case. We live, I mean, you have to be having blindfolders on and covering your ears to think that we don’t live in a very divisive society now, from a political standpoint. I mean, it’s just unfortunate, but it is what it is. And you know, from experience historically, that when you don’t have unanimity in an approach to something, you’re not as effective in how you handle it. So I think you’d have to make the assumption that if there wasn’t such divisiveness, that we would have a more coordinated approach.

福西：我觉得你不得不承认这是事实。我们生活在，我的意思是，从政治角度来看，你必须蒙住眼睛，捂住耳朵，才能认为我们现在不是生活在非常分裂的社会里。我的意思是，这很不幸，但事实就是如此。你知道，从历史经验来看，当你在处理某件事情的方法上，没有达成一致意见时，你就不能有效地处理它。所以我认为你必须假设，如果没有这样的分歧，我们会有一个更加协调的方法。

On how the U.S. is doing:
AR: How do you think the U.S. is doing right now? If you’re looking across the world, what are your feelings about how we’re doing right now?

关于美国现在的情况：
安娜：你认为美国现在的情况如何？如果你环顾世界，你对我们现在的情况有什么感受？

AF: Well, let me say there are parts of the United States, like where you live right now [in New York], that are doing really well, that you’ve been through something really bad and you have things under control. And you have a governor and mayor in the city who understand what it means to go by the guidelines for the gateway, phase one, phase two, phase three. So you’re doing well. Other cities are doing well. But as a country, when you compare us to other countries, I don’t think you can say we’re doing great. I mean, we’re just not.

福西：好吧，让我说说美国的一些地方，比如你现在住的纽约，情况很好，你们经历了一些非常糟糕的事情，但一切都在你们的掌控之中。这个城市有一个政府官员和市长，他们知道按照指导方针，第一阶段，第二阶段，第三阶段意味着什么。所以你们做得很好。其他城市也做得不错。但是作为一个国家，当你把我们和其他国家相比时，我不认为你可以说我们做得很好。我的意思是，我们没有。

On travel restrictions:
AR: We’re at this weird place now where the EU and some other European countries are opening their borders, but they’re still banning travel from the United States. Do you think that’s a justified decision on their part?

关于旅行限制：
安娜：我们现在面临一个奇怪的处境，欧盟和其他一些欧洲国家正在开放他们的边界，但是他们仍然禁止从美国过来的旅行。你认为他们这样做是正当的决定吗？

AF: You know, I wouldn’t use the word justified. I would say it’s understandable. Because, you know, when we saw that there were many cases in Europe and in China, we banned travel from the European Union, from the U.K., to us. So right now, they have their infection rate very low, much lower than we do. So they’re looking at us and they’re saying the same thing that we said to them. I wish that that were not the case. I wouldn’t be recommending that. I think we need to get back to some sort of normality. Just the same as they’re saying to us, “Why are you still banning travel from Europe?” Which we are. I mean, so I’m all for America and I back what we do. But if I were a European, then I’d be looking at us. I’d say, “Why are you still banning Europeans from coming to the United States?”

福西：我不会用“正当”这个词。我认为这是可以理解的。因为，你知道，之前我们看到在欧洲和中国有很多病例时，我们禁止欧盟，英国到我们这里旅行。现在，他们的感染率非常低，比我们低得多。所以他们看着我们，说着我们对他们说过的话。我希望事实并非如此。我不会建议这样做。但我认为我们需要回到某种正常的状态。就像他们对我们说的那样“为什么你们仍然禁止来自欧洲的旅行? ”我们确实是这样做。我的意思是，我完全支持美国，我支持我们所做的决定。但如果我是欧洲人，我就会看着我们，然后说“为什么你们仍然禁止欧洲人来美国? ”

On whether we can get control of the virus without a vaccine:
AR: Without a vaccine, how hopeful are you that we’ll get this pandemic under control in the U.S.?

关于我们是否能在没有疫苗的情况下控制病毒：
安娜：如果没有疫苗，你认为我们美国有希望能控制住这场大流行吗？

AF: I think we can get it under control. But keeping it under control is going to be the real problem. Because this virus is not like other viruses that we’ve experienced, like the original SARS from 2002. That was a coronavirus. It caused an outbreak, a pandemic — there were 8,000 cases and 800 deaths. So in magnitude alone, you see how different it is from what we’re doing now. But it was not really very well and efficiently transmissible, whereas this virus, to our dismay, is spectacularly efficient in transmitting from person to person. So that makes me skeptical whether we would get permanent, sustained control of this without having a vaccine.

福西：我想我们能控制住局面的。但是，真正的问题是该如何控制它。因为这种病毒不同于我们经历过的其他病毒，比如2002年的SARS，那是一种冠状病毒，它引起了一场疫情的爆发，一场大流行——有8000个病例，造成800人死亡。所以单从数量级来说，你可以看到它与我们现在所做的有多么不同。但是SARS病毒的传播能力并不是很高，也不是很有效。
然而令我们沮丧的是，这次的新冠病毒在人与人之间传播的效率高得惊人。所以这让我怀疑我们是否能够在没有疫苗的情况下长久地控制这场疫情。

On how anti-vaxxers affect what will happen once a vaccine is discovered:
AR: One thing I’ve been thinking a lot about is that, you know, with any vaccine, even after it goes through extensive clinical trials, there is always some risk of adverse effects. And even if the side effects with the COVID vaccine, whatever it may be, are extremely small, it’s going to get more media attention than probably any other vaccine in history. At the same time, we also have a growing anti-vaccine movement in this country and around the world. So I’m wondering whether you and other other public health officials are concerned about kind of the long term impact of this moment on vaccine acceptance?

关于反疫苗运动如何影响发现疫苗后的情况：
安娜：我一直在思考的一件事是，你知道，任何疫苗，即使经过广泛的临床试验，总是有一些副作用的风险。而且即使新冠疫苗的副作用非常小，它也将比历史上任何其他疫苗得到更多的媒体关注。与此同时，在美国和世界各地，反疫苗运动也在愈演愈烈。所以，我想知道你和其他公共卫生官员是否担心这个时刻对疫苗接种的长期影响？

AF: That’s a great question, Anna. Because what it really tells us is that we got to get it right. We really do. Because if we don’t, it might have a real negative impact in the long range, in the long term, on how people approach and respond to the need for vaccination, which is the reason why we’re taking so seriously that even though we’re doing this quickly, we’re not compromising the safety and nor are we compromising the scientific integrity. So as we go into the phase three trials, not only are we going to be looking at efficacy, but we’re going to be really paying attention: Is there anything there that we’re seeing that’s even suggestive of a negative impact? That’s going to be really very important. So that’s a really important question you asked.

福西：这是一个很好的问题，安娜。因为它真正告诉我们的是，我们必须把事情做好。我们真的需要。因为如果我们不这样做，从长远来看，这可能会对关于人们如何应对疫苗接种的需要，产生真正的负面影响，这就是为什么我们这么认真对待的原因，即使我们做得很快，我们既不能在安全性上妥协，也不能在科学的完整性上妥协。所以，当我们进入第三阶段试验时，我们不仅要关注疗效，而且还要真正关注：有没有什么我们看到的，甚至暗示着负面影响的东西？这将是非常重要的。所以，你问的这个问题非常重要。

网友评论：
HighGround24
I find it funny that so many people hate him because they disagree with what he's saying.
It's crazy how people just want to hear what they want to hear despite facts.

我觉得有趣的是，这么多人讨厌他，因为他们不同意他说的话。
人们不顾事实如何，只想听他们想听的东西，这简直有病。

gordonf23
People don’t hate him because they disagree with him. They hate him because he disagrees with Trump.

人们讨厌他不是因为他们不同意他，而是因为他不同意特朗普。

IntegrityNotIncluded
Precisely this. If Trump suddenly did a 180 tomorrow and agreed with everything Fauci said, his base would love him.

正是如此。如果特朗普明天突然做出180度大转弯，并同意福西所说的一切，他的支持者们会喜欢他的。

Affectionate-Ad-2693
If Trump started wearing a mask and tweeted that real Americans wear a mask to protect each other, his supporters would be outside of retail stores threatening and shaming people with no mask. COVID would be old, boring news at this point if he did that back in March and we'd be mostly back to normal other than wearing masks in public.
But that's not going to happen because he doesn't want to mess up his bronzer.

如果特朗普开始戴口罩，并在推特上说真正的美国人戴口罩是为了保护彼此，那么他的支持者们就会站在便利店外面，威胁和羞辱没有戴口罩的人。如果特朗普在三月份的时候这么做的话，那么在这个时候，新冠疫情早就会成为又过时又无聊的新闻了，而且我们将基本恢复正常，而不用在公共场合戴口罩。
但这是不可能的，因为特朗普不想弄脏自己的古铜色化妆品。

Flincher14
Ironically if they did wear mask and flatten the curve before election time it would greatly help Trump win.
They are self sabotaging.

具有讽刺意味的是，如果他们真的在选举前戴上口罩并拉平感染曲线，这将极大地帮助特朗普获胜。
然而他们正在自我毁灭。

QuesoChef
They don’t care who dies. They’re all fat, old, and poor. And not the economy.

他们不在乎谁死了，他们都是又胖又老又穷的人，而且不在乎经济。

MJMurcott
and Trump continues to lie about COVID 19

而且特朗普还在继续对新冠疫情撒谎。

willowwrenwild
A certain percentage hate him because of some deep conspiracy shit. The short of it is he’s evil because of his advocacy for vaccines, and friendship/professional association with Bill Gates who apparently wants to kill off a bunch of humans with vaccines and track the rest with secret microchips disguised as vaccines.

有一部分人讨厌福西是因为一些阴谋。简而言之：他是邪恶的，因为他拥护疫苗，而且他与比尔 · 盖茨的友谊/专业关系，显然他想用疫苗杀死一群人，然后用伪装成疫苗的秘密微芯片追踪剩下的人。

JonSnowgaryen
Our numbers are only so high BECAUSE we're doing MORE TESTING because we are the BEST COUNTRY

我们的感染数之所以这么高，是因为我们做了更多的检测，因为我们是最好的国家。

Gugnir226
Those people are fucking morons.

那些人都是他妈的白痴。

infamoustaco69
This pandemic has really shown how dumb Americans are

这场流行病已经证明了美国人是多么的愚蠢。

jrex035
Really? The past 4 years wasn't enough of a demonstration?

真的吗? 过去的四年还不够证明这点吗？

infamoustaco69
Haha yeah you got a point. I am from Australia and don’t really pay attention to most things going on in America except for the following: 1. Trump saying something dumb 2. Another shooting and everyone acting surprised even though getting guns is quite easy (correct me if I’m wrong)

哈哈，你说到点子上了。我来自澳大利亚，对美国发生的大多数事情并不关心，除了以下这些：
1、特朗普说了些蠢话。
2、又一次枪击，每个人都表现得很惊讶，尽管拿到枪很容易(如果我错了请纠正我)

jrex035
Trump being elected in the first place shattered my belief in the intelligence of my fellow Americans. The past 3.5 years of people defending his every stupid comment, illogical policy, and clear incompetence/corruption.
And yeah guns are super easy to get in most of the country. Mass shootings largely dont even get much air time anymore unless they're a hate crime, or target children, or the biggest mass shooting in history (up to that point), etc.

特朗普当选首先粉碎了我对美国同胞们的智慧的信心。在过去的三年半里，人们为他的每一句愚蠢的评论、不合逻辑的政策、以及明显的无能/腐败辩护。
是的，枪支在这个国家的大部分地区都很容易得到。大规模枪击事件很大程度上甚至不再有太多的播报时间了，除非是仇恨犯罪，或者以儿童为目标，或者是历史上最大规模的枪击事件(截至目前)等等。

Air320
Wow, you guys are fucking desensitized over there aren't you?

哇，你们这些家伙真他妈的无情，是吧？

jrex035
Unfortunately.
When 2 dozen elementary school children were murdered at Sandy Hook and instead of doing literally anything about America's gun problem, Republicans instead spread conspiracy theories and made fun of Obama for shedding tears during the press conference, I knew nothing meaningful was ever going to happen on the national level.

不幸的是。
当二十多名小学生在桑迪胡克遇害时，共和党人没有对美国的枪支问题采取任何行动，而是散布阴谋论，嘲笑奥巴马在新闻发布会上流泪，我知道在国家层面上永远不会发生任何有意义的事情。

talaxia
30% of the country are dumb sociopaths.

这个国家30%的人都是愚蠢的反社会者。

Hiccup
It's a shithole. They're basically dealing with PTSD.

这里就是个屎坑，他们基本上是在处理创伤后应激障碍。

Pit_of_Death
You're watching the American Decline in real time right now. It's been going on for awhile but COVID combined with the guy in the Oval Office sped it up. You're witnessing history, we're slowly destroying ourselves.

你们现在正在实时地看到美国的衰落。这种情况已经持续了一段时间，但是新冠疫情和总统办公室的那个家伙，加速了这种情况的发生。你们正在见证历史，而我们正在慢慢毁灭自己。

jrex035
Yep. Our country is broken and if Trump wins again its game over

没错。我们的国家已经支离破碎了，如果特朗普再次赢得选举，那么就彻底完蛋了。

kmbabua
We knew they were dumb the moment they votes for a reality TV star over a strong woman with experience.

当他们投票选择一个真人秀明星，而不是一个有经验的女强人时，我们就知道他们很愚蠢。

Chocolate_fly
Unfortunately it’s not just Fauci or other disease experts. We’ve been ignoring climate scientists for decades. And other scientific fields as well, like evolutionary biologists.
For some strange (and very sad) reason, science has become politicized to the point where scientists are often painted as corrupt or bad if their experimental observations are inconvenient.

遗憾的是，不仅仅是福西或者其他疾病专家。几十年来，我们一直忽视气候科学家。还有其他科学领域，比如进化生物学家。
由于一些奇怪的(也是非常悲哀的)原因，科学已经变得政治化了，如果科学家们的实验观察有麻烦，他们常常会被描绘成腐败或者糟糕。

HighGround24
Scientists have had it hard throughout history.
It's a good thing you can't burn them alive or hang them anymore.

纵观历史，科学家们的日子一直不好过。
不过好在，你们没有把他们活活烧死或吊死。

BlazenRyzen
Depends on the country...

取决于国家..

lunachuvak
The vast majority of citizens of the United States do not hate him. The vast majority of citizens of the United States respect him, his reputation, and his advice. Those who "hate" him are loud, confused, conflicted, impenetrable.

绝大多数美国公民并不讨厌他。绝大多数美国公民都尊重他，尊重他的声誉，尊重他的建议。那些“讨厌”他的人吵闹、困惑、矛盾和不可理喻。

jjwax
damn I didn't realize he was 80! he's looking great

我的天，我都不知道他已经80岁了，他看起来很精神。

EviRs18
He ran most everyday of his life and power walks now due to his back. In the 70s he was apart of a running team called The Health Angels. Now he looks better than most 60 year olds I know, makes you really think if you’d like an extra 10-20 years...

他一生中的大部分时间都在跑步，现在由于背部的原因，他开始用快步行走的。在70年代，他是一个叫做“健康天使”跑步队的成员。现在他看起来比我认识的大多数60岁的人都要健康，让你真的会考虑，如果你想多活十到二十年的话...

rabidstoat
Americans not listening to experts is just a thing now.
It's like how the CDC put out this very detailed guide to reopening safely, and then Trump said "we must open, let 'er rip!" And just about everyone ignored the guidelines and just threw open the doors.

美国人不听专家的话现在只是一件事。
这就像疾控中心发布了关于安全重新开放的详细指南，然后特朗普说“我们必须开放，全力以赴！”然后几乎所有人都无视这些准则，就敞开了大门。

NextHammer
This interview was released like 2 hours ago. For the first time Fauci was very concrete. Trump is propably mad now. But this is actually a fact, a no brainer if you look at the numbers tbh.

这个采访是两小时前发布的。福西有史以来第一次这么具体。特朗普现在可能是疯了。但实际上这是个事实，老实说，如果你看看这些数字，你就会发现这是一个显而易见的事实。

scuffripe
Fauci had to deal with the Reagan administration during the AIDS crisis and now this

在以前的艾滋病危机期间，福奇不得不与里根政府打交道，而现在是这个。

Fidel_Chadstro
Both could have been much less bad had science been prioritized over politics

如果科学优先于政治，那么这两种情况都不会那么糟糕。

dr_mcstuffins
Yeah but imagine what they would have been like without him

是的，但是想象一下，如果没有他，他们会是什么样子

Lord_of_hosts
If Trump died from it, a big chunk - maybe most - of his base would blame an assassin. Most of the rest would immediately pivot to "well he was old" and change nothing. Virtually none would admit they were wrong.

如果特朗普死于这疫情，他的大部分支持者，也许有一大部分都会归咎于刺客。其余的大多数人会立即转向“他只是老了”，什么情况也不会改变。事实上，没有人会愿意承认他们错了。

l1ttle_weap0n
Lol they would say that it was a radical leftist assassination using COVID-19 as cover

哈哈，他们会说这是一个激进左翼的暗杀行动，利用新冠疫情作为掩护。

canuckcowgirl
I heard Fauci say in an interview that the coronavirus was his worst nightmare. I'm sure he didn't take into account Trump.

我听过福西在一次采访中说，新冠病毒是他最可怕的噩梦。我敢肯定他没有把特朗普考虑进去。

ornery_panfish
His nightmare is that he's been preparing for this for his entire career. This would have been his time to shine. But he's in the unlucky position of working for an administration that simply doesn't believe in science or medicine. So he's watching this trainwreck slowly unfold, knowing he could have stopped it if people just listened to him.
Although it's not really just Trump's fault. The CDC completely bungled the shit they should have been able to pull off. They fucked up the first couple of rounds of tests at a crucial time. They told people that masks didn't help when they know they did. They lost a lot of goodwill and trust by fucking up so bad at the beginning.

他的噩梦是他整个职业生涯都在为这场疫情做准备。这本该是他大显身手的时候。但是他处在一个不幸的位置，为一个根本不相信科学或医学的政府工作。所以他看着这辆火车慢慢失事，他知道如果人们听他的，他本可以阻止这场疫情。
尽管这不仅仅是特朗普的错。疾控中心完全搞砸了他们本应该能搞定的事情。他们在关键时刻的前几轮检测失败了。当他们知道口罩有用时，他们却告诉人们口罩没用。他们一开始的糟糕表现，失去了很多人们的好感和信任。