[2024-11-01]Reddit评论区：大疆起诉美国国防部，因称其为“中国军工企业”，并表示美国国防部没有证据就污蔑大疆

DJI, the world’s largest drone company, on Friday, it sued the US Department of Defense to delete its name from a list of “Chinese Military Companies,” claiming it has no such relationship to Chinese authorities and has suffered unfairly as a result of that designation.
Since DJI was added to that list in 2022, the company claims, it has “lost business deals, been stigmatized as a national security threat, and been banned from contracting with multiple federal government agencies,” and that its employees “now suffer frequent and pervasive stigmatization” and are “repeatedly harassed and insulted in public places.”
It also alleges that the DoD would not offer the company any explanation for its designation as a “Chinese Military Company” until DJI threatened a lawsuit this September, and claims that when the DoD finally offered up its reasoning, it was filled with errors.
The US Department of Defense didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.

大疆是全球最大的无人机公司，上周五，它对美国国防部提起诉讼，要求将其从“中国军工企业”名单中删除。大疆声称自己与中国官方没有这样的关系，并且因为这一标签而遭受了不公平的对待。
自从2022年被加入这个名单以来，大疆表示，他们“失去了商业交易机会，被视为国家安全威胁，并被禁止与多个联邦政府机构签订合同。”此外，大疆的员工也表示他们“经常遭受广泛的污名化，在公共场所反复被骚扰和侮辱。”
大疆还表示，国防部在今年9月之前没有就其被列为“中国军工企业”给出任何解释，直到大疆威胁要提起诉讼时，国防部才提供了一些理由，但大疆认为这些理由错误百出。
目前，美国国防部尚未对此做出回应。
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cosmiccerulean
Honest question, what are the alternatives if I don’t want to use DJI? I’ve resisted buying DJI, but even if I only want entry level drone for work purposes there are literally no other brands I can even find and compare to, how have they cornered the market so throughly?

老实说，如果我不想使用大疆，还有什么其他选择？我一直在抵制购买大疆，但即使我只想购买入门级无人机用于工作目的，我也根本找不到其他品牌可以与之相比，他们是如何这么彻底地占领市场的？

giritrobbins -> cosmiccerulean
It's a hard market. It's essentially a luxury good and the only way other drone companies have survived is supporting pro users or defense.
The argument is there are explicit and implicit subsidies that make DJI drones much cheaper allowing them to undersell other companies.
I'll just pick one example. Buying a flir Boson camera off the shelf a few at a time is between 4k and 6k. The Mavic 3 with thermal is 6k. Sure DJI is buying a ton more than probably every other customer and getting price breaks but a lot of their costs are paid down or non existent.

市场竞争非常激烈，无人机本质是奢侈品。其他无人机公司生存下来的唯一途径是支持专业用户或国防领域。
有一种说法是，大疆能把无人机价格压得这么低，是因为他们享受了显性或隐性的补贴，这让他们可以比其他公司卖得便宜。
举个例子，市面上买一台Flir Boson热成像相机，少量购买的话价格在4千到6千美元之间。而带有热成像功能的Mavic 3价格是6千美元。当然，大疆的购买量肯定比其他客户多，能拿到优惠价格，但他们的很多成本要么已经摊销掉了，要么压根不存在。

cyberhenzit -> giritrobbins
Western countries had out billions in subsidies. This has to be the dumbest propaganda argument that western governments came up with.

西方国家发放了数十亿美元的补贴。这一定是西方政府提出的最愚蠢的宣传论点。

AttonJRand -> giritrobbins
What I don't get is why western countries whine so much about the "subsidies" or investments China makes into its own economy.
Why not just do the same, instead of creating trade organizations and deals to punish each other for doing so.

我不明白的是，为什么西方国家总是对中国对自己经济的“补贴”或投资大惊小怪。为什么不直接效仿，而是通过建立贸易组织和协议来惩罚彼此呢？

PatchworkFlames -> AttonJRand
Because when China puts their tax dollars into making cars, the U.S. auto industry cannot keep up without putting the same amount of tax dollars into private car companies themselves.
No one wants to give the domestic auto industry a government check for a trillion dollars, but that’s what China has done. So, tariffs. It’s either that or no more domestic auto industry.

因为当中国把税款投入到汽车制造中时，如果不把同样多的税款投入到私营汽车公司本身，美国汽车业就无法跟上。
没有人愿意给美国本土汽车行业一张一万亿美元的政府支票，但中国就是这么做的。所以，关税。要么这样，要么就别再搞本土汽车产业了。

calmwhiteguy -> PatchworkFlames
I think people dont want to give the domestic auto industry a dime because they don't do anything with it when they get bailed out every 10 years. It's like Boeing. All these American giants are just funneling their revenue into CEOs while gutting the company YoY.

我觉得他们不愿意给本土汽车业一毛钱，是因为他们每隔 10 年就要被救助一次，却什么也不做。这就像波音公司一样。所有这些美国巨头都只是把收入输送给CEO，而公司却在逐年缩水。

oroborus68 -> calmwhiteguy
I remember when there were 4 or 5 domestic airplane manufacturers. Boeing is the last.

我记得当时有四五家国内飞机制造商。现在就剩波音一家了。

calmwhiteguy -> oroborus68
That's why it's monopoly bustin' time.
If America refuses to regulate properly corporations, then at least follow the one rule we have.
Let's reset the clock and make hundreds of thousands of Americans middle class in new competing companies that are too busy outdoing each other to care about Airbus lagging behind. Make it a race and get domestic flights cheaper.
Get all kinds of parts manufacturing roaring in America again. Get tradesmen building the best planes and cars and engineers working with them to design it for insane fuel economy. Change the game. Stop giving the game to China and tarrifing American companies that have nowhere to buy from, except China. And we need to stop encouraging execs in America to take home hundreds of millions for increasing a stock from $7 to $13 over 20 years and tanking the companies perceived value and trust. That's the real make America Great Again.
Everything got so exciting when Bell got broken up (modern internet came from it). Google came from Microsoft, which led to the best search engine on the market. It's time to make the market exciting again and allow Americans to make something new and enrich the rest of us with it. We've become so fucking soft.

这就是为什么现在是打破垄断的时候了。
如果美国拒绝对企业进行适当监管，那么至少要遵守我们现有的一条规则。
让我们重新设定时间，让成千上万的美国人在新的竞争公司中成为中产阶级，让这些公司忙于互相竞争，无暇顾及空客的落后。把这变成一场竞赛，让国内航班更便宜。
让美国的各种零部件制造业再次蓬勃发展。让技术人员制造出最好的飞机和汽车，让工程师与他们一起设计出超省油的飞机和汽车。改变游戏规则，不要再把游戏交给中国，也不要再对那些除了中国，无处购买的美国公司征收关税。我们得阻止那些美国高管们把股票从7美元涨到13美元然后拿走数亿美元的回报，同时还让公司价值和信誉受损。这才是真正的让美国再次伟大。
当年贝尔公司被拆分后，一切都变得那么激动人心（现代互联网就是从那时候开始的）。谷歌从微软出来，成了市场上最好的搜索引擎。是时候让市场再次充满活力，让美国人创造出新东西，让我们都因此受益。我们已经变得太他妈弱了。

ratsta -> calmwhiteguy
Yup! Accepting a bailout should mean nationalisation of the company. Sure, the investors lose out. That's the risk they accepted when investing. The executives who are going to have trouble finding another appointment should've considered that before running the company into the ground for personal benefit.
Meanwhile a "too big to fail" organisation can now be run as a QANGO, keeping services, jobs and supply lines intact until it's turned around then kept as a cash cow to repay the bailout and eventually give the govt more money (which means more spending without tax hikes). It's win, win, win for everyone except the crooks and the fools who trust the crooks.

是的！接受救助就应该意味着公司被国有化。当然，投资者会亏损，但这就是投资时的风险。那些以后难找到工作的高管在把公司搞垮以谋取私利之前，就该想到这一点。
同时，一个“大而不能倒”的组织可以作为准政府组织来运营，维持服务、就业和供应链，直到公司好转。然后，把它变成摇钱树，偿还救助款，最终还带给政府更多的钱（这意味着在不加税的情况下增加支出）。除了那些骗子和信任骗子的傻子，这对所有人来说都是三赢的。

POTARadio
Especially when it comes to defense-related industries, countries don't want domestic companies to fail due to foreign competition. Like it or not DJI's products are directly used in combat, just look at the Ukraine footage.

尤其是涉及国防相关产业时，各国都不希望本国公司因外国竞争而倒闭。不管你喜不喜欢大疆的产品直接用于战斗，看看乌克兰的视频就知道了。

LigPaten -> POTARadio
DJIs aren't used as much as they used to be. They've started building a lot of drones using off the shelf parts as they can make them more in line with their needs with things like jamming resistance and the like.

大疆已经不像以前那样常用了。他们已经开始使用现成的部件制造大量无人机，这样可以根据自己的需要来制造无人机，比如抗干扰等。

bfire123
Why not just do the same
Because its against WTO rules and than other countries can put tarrifs up.

“为什么不效仿他们做同样的事”
因为这违反了世贸组织的规则，而且其他国家也可以因此提高关税。

Relevant-Doctor187 -> bfire123
It’s also a matter of balanced trade. We buy cheap goods from overseas markets but those same markets just purchase from each other and not equally back from us which means a massive wealth transfer from US pockets to Chinese pockets has occurred. This has allowed China to afford to modernize and grow their military to the point it’s a regional threat, build an industrial complex that far surpasses the capabilities of the US and EU combined, and undercut our industries to the point they’re contracting rather than growing.
Eventually China will challenge democracy globally. Today they undermine it, but eventually they’re going to begin to push their influence harder.
Worse is that if Trump we’re to win and his statements on not supporting allies, China and North Korea may make a simultaneous push on both Taiwan and South Korea knowing that such a conflict would be extremely difficult to counter immediately if at all.
If that happened it would be a global economic coup that would reverberate for generations. Likely kick off WW3 as Russia would push hard on Eastern Europe. Frankly it feels beyond the failures of Russian hardware that they’re not putting maximum effort into taking Ukraine that this might be more aimed at depleting our reserves which has happened though we have also responded by building more production capacity. Russia better watch out. China would love to claim far east Russia.

这也是贸易平衡的问题。我们从海外市场购买廉价商品，但这些市场只是互相购买，而不是平等地从我们这里回购，这意味着大量财富从美国口袋转移到了中国口袋。这使得中国有能力实现军事现代化并将其发展壮大到对地区构成威胁的地步，建立一个远远超过美国和欧盟能力总和的工业综合体，并削弱我们的工业，使其萎缩而非增长。
中国终将在全球范围内挑战民主。今天，他们在削弱民主，但最终他们会开始加大影响力。
更糟糕的是，如果特朗普获胜并发表不支持盟友的言论，中国和朝鲜可能会同时向台湾（地区）和韩国发起进攻，因为他们知道，即使发生冲突，我们也很难立即反击。
如果发生这种情况，这将是一场影响几代人的全球经济政变。由于俄罗斯将大力进攻东欧，可能会引发第三次世界大战。坦率地说，除了俄罗斯硬件的失败之外，我们还感觉到他们并没有尽最大努力攻占乌克兰，这可能更多的是为了消耗我们的储备，这已经发生了，虽然我们也通过提高生产能力来应对。俄罗斯最好小心点。中国很乐意宣称对俄罗斯远东地区拥有主权。

JulioChavezReuters
It’s not just about money and raw cost to the consumer
Skydio, the American drone company, straight up does not sell drones to the public. They cost thousands of dollars, but even if you have the thousands you can’t buy a drone just in a few clicks.
Skydio does not innovate
Why? Because they are the only company that the Defense industry can buy from. There is zero market pressure on them

对消费者来说，这不仅仅是钱和原始成本的问题。
美国无人机公司 Skydio 直接不向公众出售无人机。它们的售价高达数千美元，但即使你有这笔钱，也无法通过点击几下鼠标就能买到无人机。
Skydio 没有创新。
为什么？因为他们是国防工业唯一可以购买的公司。他们没有任何市场压力。

architect___ -> giritrobbins
It's not a luxury good. You can get a DJI Neo for $200. DJI are by far the best drones you can get for the money, that's basically the opposite of a luxury good.

它不是奢侈品。200 美元就能买到 DJI Neo。大疆是迄今为止性价比最高的无人机，这与奢侈品正好相反。

FlyingBishop -> architect___
Anything you don't need is a luxury good. Could be $1.

任何你不需要的东西都算是奢侈品，即使它只值1美元。

bikeveloce -> FlyingBishop
That’s not how luxury economics works.
Edit: Just because you buy something with discretionary money does not mean the item is “luxury.” Incredible the ignorance of the general public / people on Reddit. The very definition of luxury is that it is expensive. The way luxury economics works is that the more expensive, the more luxury, the more difficult to obtain, the more psychological desire for the item. A mass produced item at $200 is not luxury. The whole point of mass production and reducing price is to make it easier to purchase - a commodity - the opposite of luxury.

奢侈品经济可不是这么运作的。
编辑：用可自由支配的钱买东西并不意味着该物品就是 "奢侈品"。公众和 Reddit 上的人们的无知真让人难以置信。奢侈品的定义就是昂贵。奢侈品经济学的工作原理是，越昂贵，越奢侈，越难以获得，心理上对物品的渴望就越强烈。一件 200 美元的量产商品并不是奢侈品。批量生产和降低价格的目的就是为了让人们更容易购买，商品，与奢侈品恰恰相反。

FlyingBishop -> bikeveloce
Not giving a seminar here I'm just giving the one sentence explanation of why DJI Neos being relatively inexpensive has no bearing on whether or not they are luxury goods.

我不是在搞什么讲座，只是用一句话解释一下：DJI Neos虽然价格比较便宜，但这跟它们是不是奢侈品没有关系。

bikeveloce -> FlyingBishop
Even this answer is completely contradictory. The very definition of luxury is that an item is expensive and or difficult to obtain. You can’t just invent your own meaning of luxury that is the opposite of what the word actually means.

即使你这个回答也是完全矛盾的。奢侈品的定义本身就是一件物品价格昂贵或难以获得。你不能自己编造出与这个词实际含义相反的 "奢侈品 "含义。

Smile_Space -> FlyingBishop
It's a tough product to produce well. Their GNC (guidance, navigation, and control) algorithms are unparalleled compared to competition. As a result, their products work well for the hobbyist, consumer, pro-sumer, and corporate users. Quite literally the entire market.
Want a great wifi camera for your custom drone for FPV flying? DJI O3 exists.
Want a nice drone that's legal to fly as a hobbyist/consumer? Mavic Mini
Want a drone for pro-sumer activities with a Part 107? Mavic 3 Pro
Need a massive octocopter to hold your insanely expensive $100k film camera for unparalleled virtual panning shots for a big budget movie? Spreading Wings S1000 is your move.
Over the last 10 years or so they have developed their product and expanded their lineup to hit every single corner of the market whilst having an ecosystem that is DJI specific. And they did it without any early competition allowing them to get an edge up on the competition and lock people into their ecosystem.
It's similar to Apple's strategy, except there isn't an Android-style alternative to DJI. So, corporate markets use DJI nearly exclusively due to their quality and relatively lower price compared to building a custom rig or buying from one of the few competitors in the market.

这是一种很难生产的产品。与竞争对手相比，他们的 GNC（制导、导航和控制）算法无与伦比。所以，他们的产品非常适合业余爱好者、消费者、专业消费者和企业用户。实际上，他们的产品适用于整个市场。
想要为你的定制无人机配备一个用于 FPV 飞行的出色 Wifi 摄像头吗？大疆 O3 就能满足你的需求。
想要一款作为业余爱好者/消费者可以合法飞行的漂亮无人机？大疆 Mavic Mini。
想拥有一架符合 Part 107 标准的专业消费级无人机？大疆 Mavic 3 Pro。
需要一架巨大的八旋翼飞行器来固定你昂贵无比的 10 万美元电影摄影机，为大制作电影拍摄无与伦比的虚拟平移镜头？大疆 Spreading Wings S1000适合你。
在过去 10 年左右的时间里，他们开发了自己的产品，扩大了产品阵容，覆盖了市场的每一个角落，同时建立了一个大疆特有的生态系统。而且他们在早期没有竞争对手的情况下，迅速占领了市场，并将人们锁定在他们的生态系统中。
这与苹果公司的策略类似，只是大疆没有安卓式的替代产品。因此，企业市场几乎只使用大疆的产品，因为与定制设备或从市场上为数不多的竞争对手处购买相比，大疆的质量和价格相对较低。

kakom38274 -> cosmiccerulean
there is no better drones for the price dji offers, however if you were willing to pay a few thousand more, you might match the quality of dji with a domestic, made in usa drone

在这个价位上，没有比大疆更好的无人机了。如果你愿意多付几千美元，你就可以选择美国制造的国产无人机，其质量可能与大疆的无人机不相上下。

Ahmatt -> kakom38274
Few thousands more? Dji are all under a thousand… few thousands more takes you to enterprise grade drones category

几千美元？大疆的价格都在一千以下... 再多几千就属于企业级无人机了

_my_way -> Ahmatt
.....that's the point..... Find me a made in the USA drone for 1k that matches dji capabilities.

...这就是重点... 给我找一架美国制造的无人机，售价 1 千美元，性能与大疆相当的。

Ahmatt -> _my_way
Lets be real, US cant even make an android phone under a thousand that match processing power of the highend dji drones. Let alone putting additional 4 motors, 8 cameras, lipo battery on that to make it fly.

实事求是地说，美国甚至无法制造出一款处理能力可与高端大疆无人机媲美的千元以下安卓手机。更不用说在上面加装 4 个电机、8 个摄像头和锂电池，让它飞起来了。

__redruM -> Ahmatt
In the FPV market, DJI is the most expensive, and best option.

在 FPV 市场上，大疆是最昂贵也是最好的选择。

Lyrkana -> __redruM
FPV? No, DJI is not always the best option.

FPV？不，大疆并不总是最佳选择。

__redruM -> Lyrkana
Unless you’re racing it is. But setting aside the “best” they’re certainly not undercutting the market to put HDZero, Walksnail, or even Fatshark out of business.

除非你要参加比赛。 但抛开 "最好的 "不谈，它们肯定没有压低市场价格，让 HDZero、Walksnail 甚至 Fatshark 倒闭。

Lyrkana -> __redruM
I race in analog because I'm broke lol but yeah hdzero is preferred by the top pilots for racing. Even then there are better options for freestyle, long range, and fpv cinematic shots than a DJI quad. The O3 air unit is still a good component for some custom quads tho

我用模拟飞行器比赛，因为我没钱，但顶级飞行员都喜欢用 hdzero 来比赛。即便如此，在自由式飞行、远距离飞行和 fpv 电影拍摄方面，还是有比大疆四轴飞行器更好的选择。不过，O3 air 仍然是一些定制四轴飞行器的理想组件。

ceraexx -> Ahmatt
Not all DJI's are under a thousand. All 3 of their consumer drones are listed at 1100 or more. Their ones at just over a thousand are probably the lowest I'd go. Kind of depends on your use, but just having a thermal alone is more than a thousand.

并非所有大疆的无人机都在一千以下。他们的三款消费级无人机售价都在 1100 或以上。他们一千多一点的价格可能是我能想到的最低了。这取决于你的用途，但仅是热成像就超过了一千元。

Jean-LucBacardi -> ceraexx
I have an Air 2S. They just released the 3S. You can get a 2S which is still an amazing drone for just under 900.
Anything with thermal imaging is always going to be expensive.

我有一台 Air 2S。 他们刚刚发布了 3S。 你只需花不到 900 美元就能买到 2S，它仍然是一款很棒的无人机。
任何带有热成像功能的设备都会很昂贵。

ceraexx -> Jean-LucBacardi
I'm sure they're decent.
I use them for work at utility solar, so they are pretty useless to me without thermal, but I know that's not everyone's objective. The usual starting price for those is around 4-6k.

我相信它们都很不错。
我在太阳能设施工作时用这些设备，所以对我来说，没有热成像功能就基本没啥用。不过我知道这不是每个人的需求。通常这种设备的起价大概在四千到六千美元左右。

Jean-LucBacardi -> ceraexx
Ahh well industry drones will always be expensive, but then again there is always a business tax write off.

工业用无人机永远都是昂贵的，但话说回来，商业税总是可以减免的。

Harry_Fucking_Seldon -> ceraexx
There’s Skydio, they look pretty awesome but more exxy

还有 Skydio，它们看起来非常棒，但更贵

fawlty_lawgic -> kakom38274
I think the biggest issue is that they are way out in front of everyone else with a commanding lead on all the technology. A US company could come along and start making high quality drones, but they would have a really hard time catching up to where DJI is currently, and by the time they did get to where they're at now, DJI will be like 10 years in the future. That's one of the biggest things I think, is just no one else has been working on this stuff and anyone that wants to compete would be starting from so far behind.

我认为最大的问题是，大疆在所有技术上都遥遥领先于其他公司。美国公司也可以开始制造高质量的无人机，但他们很难赶上大疆目前的水平，而且等他们达到现在的水平时，大疆可能又领先十年了。这是我认为最大的问题之一，因为没有人一直在研究这些东西，任何想与之竞争的人都得从远远落后的起点开始。

StudioPerks
DJI makes a fantastic product. They present a very real national security threat. Maybe if DJI wasn’t a military contractor for the largest oppressive government in existence you would still be able to buy them… then again they wouldn’t be this cheap so you’d be screwed either way.
When the quality is high and the price is low… you’re paying another secondary price as well. In this case it’s US national security

大疆的产品确实很棒，但它们也带来了真实的国家安全威胁。也许如果大疆不是全球最大的压迫性政府的军工承包商，你现在还可以买到他们的产品…不过那样一来，价格可能就没这么便宜了，所以不管怎样，你都会又麻烦。
当质量高而价格低时... 你也要付出另一种次要的代价。在这种情况下，就是美国的国家安全。

fawlty_lawgic -> StudioPerks
We are able to buy them now.

我们现在就能买到。

scrubdiddlyumptious -> StudioPerks
There has never been and probably never will be an American drone company that is of the quality similar to DJI.
GoPro and Skydildo were so terrible (inferior technology, way more expensive, worse battery, worse range, terrible support, pathetic photography + video quality, etc) that they both surrendered the drone market and left. GoPro completely stopped meanwhile Skydildo pivoted to selling “enterprise” customers who are forced to only buy US drones (plus they continue to lobby for the DJI ban so that consumers are stuck with their overpriced junk).

从来没有，也可能永远不会有一家美国无人机公司拥有与大疆类似的质量。
GoPro 和 Skydildo 的质量太差了（技术落后、价格昂贵、电池差、续航能力差、售后支持差、摄影和视频质量差等等），以至于它们都放弃了无人机市场并离开了。GoPro 完全停止了业务，而 Skydildo 则转向销售 "企业 "客户，这些客户被迫只能购买美国无人机（同时他们还在游说禁止大疆，以便消费者只能买他们那些价格过高的垃圾）。

delphinius81 -> scrubdiddlyumptious
Wait, sorry, the company name is Skydildo? As in, sex toy in the sky? That would certainly get people's attention...

等等，抱歉，这家公司的名字是 Skydildo？天上的假屌？这确实很吸引眼球啊...

guap_in_my_sock -> scrubdiddlyumptious
My new Gamertag is “Skydildo” now. Thanks for the inspiration.

我现在的新游戏账号是 "Skydildo"。谢谢你的启发。

TrptJim -> scrubdiddlyumptious
I have a GoPro drone still, a company demo model from when they were still in production. Came with a backpack case and a selfie gimble for the GoPro which was cool.
I can confirm that it is not a good drone. The DJI Mini 2 does everything better and is much smaller. Who thinks to use Wifi and expect not-horrible range and interference?
Still a cool thing to pull out every once in a while, as most people have no clue that there was ever a GoPro done.

我还有一架 GoPro 无人机，是公司还在生产时的演示机型。它还附带了一个背包和一个用于 GoPro 的自拍架，非常酷。
我可以肯定，这不是一款好的无人机。大疆 Mini 2 做什么都比它好，而且体积更小。谁会想到用WiFi还指望有不错的距离和干扰性能？
不过，偶尔拿出来玩玩还是很酷的，因为大多数人都不知道GoPro曾经做过。

Express_Helicopter93 -> scrubdiddlyumptious
Lol skydio is so bad. I had a friend who used to work for them. Extremely overpriced - for a drone that follows you around? I mean who needs that other than the very wealthy? What an insane idea lol. So dumb.

哈哈，skydio太差了。我有个朋友以前在那工作。他们的产品贵得离谱，就是一架会跟着你的无人机而已。这种东西除了特别有钱的人，谁会需要啊？真是个疯狂的想法，太傻了。

thebigman43 -> Express_Helicopter93
Every company is chasing the autonomous follow type features now, that’s like the last thing to knock them for. Their autonomous stuff is legitimately great

现在每家公司都在追求自动跟随这类功能，这已经不是什么值得批评的事情了。他们的自动功能确实很好。

Express_Helicopter93 -> thebigman43
I’m not saying it’s a bad feature I’m saying for what they charge for it, it’s simply not worth it. The real life applications of a drone following you for something are obviously very niche, individual consumers just don’t need that kind of technology.

我不是说这个功能不好，只是说按他们的售价来看，这真的不值。无人机跟着你这种功能的实际应用场景非常有限，一般消费者根本不需要这种技术。

thebigman43 -> Express_Helicopter93
I think its got a ton of potential as a consumer feature, its why DJI has focused so much advertising/work on it now.
I will say that the autonomy is definitely more valuable for industrial grade consumers though

我觉得这个功能在普通消费者中有很大潜力，这也是为什么大疆现在在这方面投入了很多广告和精力。
我认为对于工业级用户来说，自主性肯定更有价值。

swampcholla -> scrubdiddlyumptious
There are several small defense companies that make excellent quadrotors. Do they have all the functionality of a DJI? No, and honestly, its not needed. We also don’t need the drone collecting data on US military operations and sending that home to China, which they absolutely do.

有一些小型的国防公司生产的四旋翼无人机也非常不错。它们的功能和大疆的一样全吗？不，说实话，也没这个必要。我们也不希望无人机搜集美国军事行动的数据然后传回中国，但它们确实会这么做。

TheHumanite -> swampcholla
Probably out of the question to just out compete them then huh? Instead of buying the cheaper, better product like our economy demands, let's pick the worse, more expensive one to protect the people making our shit worse and more expensive.

看来直接打败他们是不太可能了，对吧？与其像我们的经济需求那样购买更便宜、更好的产品，不如选择更糟糕、更昂贵的产品，以保护那些让我们的东西变得又贵又差的人。

Shrek7201 -> TheHumanite
Yes, it's pretty much out of the question for anyone to compete with DJI without an enormous investment. DJI's development cycle is very rapid, so whatever you start designing now, will likely be obsolete by the time it's released. Maybe a Microsoft or a Google could give it a shot, but it's not a viable startup despite countless attempts.
The actual airframe and electronics part of a drone is simple and well known. Anyone can start a company that makes lightweight quadcopters, and they're on Amazon for $40.
Where DJI has actually cornered the market is in the software; both the pilot experience and the data capture/post processing. Their newest lidar (Zenmuse L2) is half the price of its competition and produces better data with a better pilot experience.
DJI provides a "for dummies" experience that rarely has issues, unlike other manufacturers that require tinkering and troubleshooting all the time to be able to fly. Sometimes, I hate the "black box" which prevents issues by simply limiting users' options, but it is definitely better for the hobby pilots who define the marketplace. Sadly, the companies that do cater to me (with advanced featuresets and customization) always end up with terrible reviews and poor sales.

是的，基本上要跟大疆竞争几乎是不可能的，除非有大量的资金投入。大疆的研发周期非常快，所以你现在开始设计的产品，等你上市的时候可能已经过时了。也许微软或者谷歌这样的大公司可以尝试一下，但对于初创公司来说，这条路基本走不通，虽然有无数次尝试。
无人机的机身和电子部件其实很简单，大家都明白。任何人都可以成立一家制造轻型四轴飞行器的公司，在亚马逊只卖40美元。然而，大疆真正垄断市场的是它的软件，包括飞行体验和数据采集/后处理。他们最新的激光雷达（Zenmuse L2）价格是竞争对手的一半，但数据质量和飞行体验都更好。
大疆提供了一种“傻瓜式”的使用体验，几乎不会出问题，而其他厂商的产品需要不断调整和排查才能飞。有时候，我讨厌那种通过限制用户选择来避免问题的“黑盒子”，但对于定义市场的业余爱好者来说，这确实更好。遗憾的是，那些迎合我这种需要高级功能和定制化的公司，总是口碑不好，销量也差。

AttemptedReplacement -> cosmiccerulean
There really aren’t any for the price and ease of use even though they’re already expensive. After them you get into the hardcore enthusiast/pro models and they’re insanely expensive.

虽然已经很贵了，但在这个价位和使用方便程度上，真的找不到其他选择。再往上就是那些专业发烧友级别的型号，价格高得离谱。

Stereogravy -> cosmiccerulean
There’s a ‘USA’ company that rebrands DJI drones (specifically the mavic 3) that you can buy for twice the price lol.

有一家 "美国" 公司把大疆无人机（特别是 mavic 3）重新贴牌，然后就可以花两倍的价格买到，哈哈。

toshgiles -> cosmiccerulean
There’s a lot of great options for drones, but none that are as plug and play as DJI while also having the quality. They’re a bit like Apple in that it’s a single package that mostly only works one way… the other drone options are often more like building your own PC that has zero guardrails built in, and doesn’t just work.

无人机有很多不错的选择，但没有一家能像大疆一样即插即用，同时还能保证质量。大疆有点像苹果，功能都打包在一起，多数情况下只能按固定的方式使用… 而其他无人机就像自己组装电脑，没什么限制，但也不一定能立刻用上手。

fawlty_lawgic -> toshgiles
they really do remind me of Apple in many ways. A lot of similarities for sure.

他们确实在很多方面让我想起了苹果公司。确实有很多相似之处。

BeatYoYeet
With a background in App Dev and as a fan of DJI products? Their requirements (user agreement) to allow Full Access to your personal data is a bit much. To use their products, as advertised, they require Full Access to your data. Not Limited Access, that should only be limited to the data collected while you’re actively using their product(s). Their ToS / User Agreement is asking for far more than any company would deem necessary to improve their product line.
Does it mean they are doing anything sinister with this data access? Probably not, but it’s requesting more than is needed by a stretch. (I say this, only because I’ve professionally developed, created, and published many mobile applications for well over a decade.)
What they request access to, is a bit overbearing, coming from a data-collection standpoint.
While yes, their phone gimbals (AKA: DJI OSMO) are useable, without the DJI Mobile App? Functionality is limited. To make use of the products best features? You must grant access for DJI to collect your data, of everything you record.
Without their software: It only stabilizes the phone… like any other gimbal. As for Drones? Good luck using it, whatsoever. Let alone, waiving any shot at receiving a repair or expecting them to honor any form of a warranty.
With the software: It requires full access (no option for limited access) to your data. The tradeoff for your data? You get the features that made you choose the DJI product, over any other gimbal / drone.
Example: Want to setup a Tripod, and have the DJI OSMO follow your focal point while recording? You must let them have access to all data, or it won’t work. Why? No good reason. It isn’t helping them improve the product, by any means.
…With that being said: I only hoped to educate people while providing reasonable logic, as to why DJI has caused an eyebrow to be raised. (If they are this invasive, in order to stabilize your phone for personal video captures? Consider what data, and why they may be capturing so much data, with their drones.) Yes, their drones are badass. The software and user agreement requirements, to use their products as intended, is what the potential issue might be.
Once again: I’m not here to argue. Only educate. They don’t care if you flew your drone in a circle. They want permission to all of your devices media, which is sent back to them and stored for unknown and undisclosed reasons. The DoD and / or DoJ, is simply doing their job(s).

作为一个有应用开发背景的人，同时也是大疆产品的粉丝，我觉得他们对用户数据完全访问权限的要求有点过分。要使用他们的产品，就像广告中描述的那样，他们要求对你的数据有完全访问权限。不是有限访问，仅限于你在实际使用他们产品时收集的数据。他们的服务条款/用户协议要求的远远超过任何公司为了改进产品线而需要的。
这是否意味着他们会用这些数据做一些不好的事情？可能不会，但他们要求的权限比实际需要的多得多。（我这么说是因为十多年来，我已经专业开发、创建并发布了多款移动应用）
从数据收集的角度来看，他们要求的权限有点过于过分。虽然说，比如他们的手机云台（大疆 OSMO）在不使用大疆移动应用的情况下也可以用，但功能就很有限。如果想用上他们产品的最佳功能，就得让他们收集你录制的所有数据。
没有他们的软件，云台只是简单地稳定你的手机，就像其他普通云台一样。而无人机呢？如果没有软件，几乎没法用，更别提保修了。
如果用了他们的软件，就得给他们完全的数据访问权限（没有有限访问的选项）。你用数据交换的是什么？是让你选择大疆产品而非其他云台或无人机的那些功能。比如说，你想用三脚架让大疆 OSMO在录制时跟踪焦点，你就得给他们访问你所有数据的权限，否则功能就无法使用。为什么呢？没什么合理的理由，这根本无助于产品改进。
总之，我只希望在提供合理逻辑的同时，让大家明白为什么大疆的做法引起了关注。如果他们为了稳定你的手机视频拍摄都这么侵入性，那他们在使用无人机时收集的数据就更值得我们思考了。是的，他们的无人机确实很厉害，但使用他们的产品时，软件和用户协议的要求可能存在问题。
再说一次，我不是来争论的，只是想让大家了解。他们并不在乎你是不是让无人机飞了个圈，他们想要的是你设备上所有媒体的访问权限，并将这些数据传回去以未知的方式和原因来储存。国防部和司法部只是做他们该做的事。

pygmy -> BeatYoYeet
I use my DJI mini with a pro controller, so without a phone. Apart from the initial setup & username entry, it is operating offline, not connected to anything.
I could be missing something but feels like a good compromise on privacy

我使用的是带有专业控制器的大疆mini，这样就不用手机了。除了初始设置和用户名输入外，它是离线运行的，没有连接任何设备。
我可能忽略了什么，但感觉这是在隐私方面的一个不错的折中方案。

BeatYoYeet -> pygmy
From this standpoint, I’d agree. I’m not sure how invasive it may be, if you’ve invested in a pro controller. I feel like that compromise, is the safest current offering. Kudos.

从这个角度来说，我同意。如果你已经投资购买了专业控制器，我不确定它的侵入性会有多大。我觉得这种折衷方案是目前最安全的选择。赞。

CookieMonsterthe2nd -> BeatYoYeet
Any difference from other companies?
Can't do crap without giving up your information. Not even order a pizza

与其他公司有什么不同？
不提供信息，什么都做不了。甚至不能订披萨

fullautohotdog -> CookieMonsterthe2nd
Your pizza company isn’t collecting photogrammetry of local, state, and federal government operations by the terabyte…

您的披萨公司并没有以 TB 为单位收集地方、州和联邦政府运作的摄影测量数据...

theLuminescentlion
I've seen enough videos from Ukraine to know that there is evidence

我看过很多乌克兰的视频，确实有证据了

Uukarllk -> theLuminescentlion
From Russia's perspective, there is also evidence that...

那从俄罗斯的角度来看，也是有证据吧...

just_a_random_guy_11 -> theLuminescentlion
DJI remains neutral on political stances and ideologies, selling drones equally to both Russia and Ukraine. This is what a true company does.

大疆在政治立场和意识形态上保持中立，同时向俄罗斯和乌克兰出售无人机。这才是一家真正的企业该做的。

FarmerJohnOSRS
Don't sell to the Russian military then.

那就不要卖给俄罗斯军方。

BigCommieMachine
The issue here is fundamentally that the DoD/Government just never needs to provide public evidence on these type of things. They just label the company as a risk to national security and says the reasons are classified. A federal judge could review it and potentially order a secret hearing, but they really don’t have any incentive to do so. And you probably don’t want to piss off the DoD/State Department when advancement in your job depends on Executive appointments.

从根本上说，问题在于国防部/政府从来不需要就这类事情提供公开证据。他们只是给公司贴上危害国家安全的标签，然后说原因是保密的。联邦法官可以对其进行审查，并有可能下令举行秘密听证会，但他们确实没有这样做的动机。而且，当你的职位晋升取决于行政任命时，你可能不想惹怒国防部/国务院。

actualsysadmin -> BigCommieMachine
DOD doesn’t add things to the “no buy” list without real reasons.
I’m surprised they haven’t blocked the import of them yet.

如果没有真正的理由，国防部不会把东西列入 "禁止购买 "清单。
我很惊讶他们还没有阻止它们的进口。

sean_themighty -> actualsysadmin
Really? You don’t think a government agency would be above putting a company or product on a “no buy” list due to petty political or financial reasons?

真的吗？你不认为政府机构会因为琐碎的政治或经济原因，而将某个公司或产品列入 "禁止购买 "名单吗？

MantraProAttitude
”Chinese military companies” are defined to include entities engaged in providing commercial services, manufacturing, producing, or exporting that are (i) owned, controlled, or beneficially owned by, or acting on behalf of, the People’s Liberation Army or any other organization under the Chinese Communist Party’s Central Military Commission; or (ii) identified as a military-civil fusion contributor to the Chinese defense industrial base.

"中国军工企业 "的定义包括从事商业服务、制造、生产或出口的实体，这些实体(i) 由中国人民解放军或中国共产党中央军事委员会下属的任何其他组织拥有、控制或实益拥有，或代表其行事；或(ii) 被确定为中国国防工业基地的军民融合贡献者。

Sabrina_janny -> MantraProAttitude
identified as a military-civil fusion contributor to the Chinese defense industrial base
hilarious because that would apply to the entire US fortune 500 as well. even kraft heinz receives military contracts

“被确定为中国国防工业基地的军民融合贡献者”
真搞笑，这也适用于所有美国财富 500 强企业。就连卡夫亨氏也拿到了军方合同

ghoonrhed -> Sabrina_janny
Yeah the label's a bit loose that it would apply to so many American companies for the US military.

是的，这个标签有点宽泛，感觉很多美国公司为美国军方服务都能被归到这个类别里。

DiplomatikEmunetey -> ghoonrhed
They are suing purely as self-defence. They know what their competition is trying to do.
It's purely business, as usual. DJI has the best drones right now and they have no competition. Their US competitor, Skydio, is apparently trying to get them out of the market by lobbying, allegedly.
One of the ways to get them out is by insinuating that they have ulterior motives. Considering DJI is Chinese, and the US can't currently keep up with the Chinese technology and I am sure is pretty salty about it, the narrative is a pretty easy sell.

他们起诉纯粹是为了自卫，他们知道竞争对手在打什么主意。
这纯粹是生意，和往常一样。大疆目前拥有最好的无人机，而且没有竞争对手。据称，他们在美国的竞争对手 Skydio 显然正试图通过游说将他们挤出市场。
让他们出局的方法之一就是暗示他们别有用心。考虑到大疆是中国公司，而美国目前无法跟上中国的技术发展，而且我相信美国对此非常不满，所以这种说法很容易被接受。

newly_me
Everyone in this thread is completely missing that this is due to an extensive lobbying campaign from DJI's US competitor, who makes far inferior, but more expensive drones. They cant compete and are trying to force legitimate competition under, like companies in other sectors. All this will do is drive up more prices for US consumers, along with recent trade sanctions that jacked up various cpu components. The US should be competitive, not try to snuff out the competition and sell it to people under the defense/'China bad' narrative. Funny how rarely regs are actually used for consumer benefit.

这个帖子很多人都完全没有意识到，这是大疆的美国竞争对手大力游说的结果。他们无法和大疆竞争，正试图像其他行业的公司一样，将合法竞争者置于死地。这只会让美国消费者的产品价格更高，而最近的贸易制裁也抬高了各种 CPU 组件的价格。美国应该具有竞争力，而不是试图扼杀竞争，并以“国防”或“中国坏”为由向人们兜售。搞笑的是，很少有法规能真正造福消费者。

the_russian_narwhal_ -> newly_me
Who is the competitor?

谁是竞争对手？

saileee -> the_russian_narwhal_
Skydio.

Skydio.

ArchegosRiskManager -> saileee
I’ve never heard of this company but my first thought was “sky dildo”.
excellent choice of company name

我从来没听说过这家公司，但我首先想到的是“天空假屌”。
公司名称选得好

kakom38274 -> newly_me
dji has nothing to steal from american companies since they are the most advanced company in this sector

大疆没有什么可以从美国公司那里窃取的，毕竟他们是这个领域最先进的公司

got_no_time_for_that -> kakom38274
I don't think the concern is that they're stealing American tech to improve their drones.

我觉得大家担心的不是他们偷美国技术来改进他们的无人机。

fawlty_lawgic -> kakom38274
that isn't the concern

这不是问题所在

just_a_random_guy_11
Enjoy shitty overpriced locally made drones that a typical drone user can't afford and won't buy cause of inferior tech. There is literally no alternative to DJI. It's not like banning one Chinese car company when you have so many good western ones.

享受那些又贵又烂的国产无人机吧，普通无人机用户根本买不起，因为技术低劣，也不会买。除了大疆，完全没有其他选择。这可不像禁掉一家中国汽车公司时，还有很多不错的西方汽车公司可以选。