[2023-09-26]国外论坛评论区：雷蒙多称没有证据表明中国能够“大规模”生产先进的芯片

Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo said she was "upset" when China's Huawei released a new phone with an advanced chip during her visit to the country last month but noted that the US has no evidence China can make those components "at scale." From a report:
"We are trying to use every single tool at our disposal to deny the Chinese the ability to advance their technology in ways that can hurt us," Raimondo testified at a congressional hearing Tuesday. The Commerce Department's Bureau of Industry and Security this month opened an investigation into Huawei's phone and the "purported" 7-nanometer chip, made by China's Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp, which was discovered in a teardown of the handset that TechInsights conducted for Bloomberg News. It is unclear whether SMIC has approval from Commerce to supply Huawei, which has been blacklisted by the US. Raimondo said she won't comment on any active investigations, but that the Commerce Department will investigate every time it appears a company may have violated US export controls.

美国商务部长吉娜·雷蒙多表示，在上个月访问中国时，华为发布了一款配备先进芯片的新手机，她对此感到“心烦意乱”，但她指出，美国没有证据表明中国能够“大规模”生产这些芯片。摘自一份报告：
雷蒙多在周二的国会听证会上作证说：“我们正努力利用我们所掌握的一切工具，阻止中国人以伤害我们的方式发展他们的科技”。本月，商务部工业与安全局对华为手机和“据称”由中国中芯国际制造的7纳米芯片展开了调查。目前尚不清楚中芯国际是否已获得美国商务部的批准，向已被美国列入黑名单的华为供货。雷蒙多说，她不会对任何正在进行的调查发表评论，但商务部将在每次发现企业可能违反美国出口管制时进行调查。
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sxpert
Let the americans believe stuff...

让美国人去相信吧…

myowntrueself
There's also no evidence the USA can make advanced chips at scale (by themselves).

也没有证据表明美国可以（靠自己）大规模生产先进芯片。

jacks smirking reven
Fair but the USA also doesn't have a knowledge or partnership problem. TSMC and others are more than happy to build fabs here, there are no meaningful restrictions on the USA , chip designers like Apple, Intel, AMD, Qualcomm, NVidia are all USA based and important suppliers like ASML are free to sell to companies in the USA. Given a lack of restrictions I would safely imagine China would also have no real issues either but in the case of USA the only things that would stop chipmaking at scale is political will and having enough properly trained workers.

有道理，但美国也没有知识或合作关系问题。 台积电和其他公司非常乐意在这里建设晶圆厂，对美国没有任何有意义的限制，苹果、英特尔、AMD、高通、英伟达等芯片设计公司都在美国，ASML 等重要供应商可以自由地向美国公司销售产品。考虑到缺乏限制，我可以肯定地说，中国也不会有什么真正问题，但就美国而言，阻止大规模芯片制造的唯一因素就是政治意愿和是否有足够的熟练工人。

larryjoe
It should be noted that the US is a latecomer to the game of placing restrictions and embargoes on Chinese chip making. Taiwan has been wary of China for decades already and has long had many rules about what TSMC and other Taiwanese companies can and cannot do in China in an attempt to keep leading edge technology away from China. Unfortunately for Taiwan and TSMC, rules about bribery and enticement are easier to legislate than to enforce. China doesn't have a lot of friends, but it has a lot of money, and while money can't buy friends, money can buy key people that is life altering.

应该指出的是，美国是对中国芯片制造实施限制和禁运的后来者。几十年来，台湾（地区）一直对中国保持警惕，长期以来一直对台积电和其他公司在中国可以做什么、不可以做什么做出许多规定，试图不让中国获得先进技术。不幸的是，对台湾和台积电来说，有关贿赂和引诱的规定立法容易而执行困难。中国没有很多朋友，但有很多钱，虽然钱买不到朋友，但钱可以收买改变命运的关键人物。

sxpert
add to that China's education system is far from being the worst in the world, they sprout hundred of thousands of high level engineers every year...

此外，中国的教育系统远远不是世界上最差的，他们每年都会涌现出成千上万的高水平工程师......

dwater
The PRC has no shortage of friends, actually.

事实上，中国并不缺朋友。

OrangeTide
Technically the US can make advanced chips and at massive scale, but we don't have a way to package them. We put them on a boat and ship them to Taiwan to be packaged.I feel like China maybe isn't capable of manufacturing these chips in 2023. But I think 18 months or less is all it would take if they are serious about acquiring the capability. Perhaps less if a convenient opportunity to invade Taiwan presents itself.

从技术上讲，美国可以大规模制造先进的芯片，但我们没有办法封装它们。我们把这些芯片装上船运到台湾封装。
虽然我觉得中国在2023年可能没有能力制造这些芯片，但我认为，如果他们真的想获得这种能力，18个月或更短的时间就足够了。如果有机会拿下台湾，也许时间会更短一些。

Cultureofone
Technically an unpackaged chip does not function in any useful manner and so for all intents and purposes is not yet anything because it's not finished.

从技术上讲，未封装的芯片不具备任何有用的功能，因此就所有意图和目的而言，它还没有任何意义，毕竟还没有完成。

Anonymous Coward
Uh, no. Technically, an unpackaged chip is potentially fully functional, it's just really hard to solder. But not impossible. Look at all the electronics with a black epoxy blob instead of discrete chips... Those are generally unpackaged chips that have been directly soldered down and then sealed with the epoxy blob.Unpackaged chips might also mean they're untested. If you do go about soldering one of these down, a good portion of them might not work just because of fabrication errors.

呃，并不是。从技术上讲，未封装的芯片功能可能是齐全的，只是焊接起来非常困难。但并非不可能。看看那些使用黑色环氧树脂块而非离散芯片的电子产品... 一般来说，那些是直接焊接并用环氧树脂密封的未封装芯片。未封装的芯片也可能意味着它们没有经过测试。如果你真的要焊接这些芯片，其中很大一部分可能会因为制造错误而无法工作。

UnknowingFool
Then you would think wrong. With current technology, it requires using EUV machines which only one company in the world makes, ASML. Before sanctions, China secured two machines. It remains to be seen the existing working condition of those machines with no assistance or parts from ASML. TSMC has dozens of ASML EUV machines per node by comparison. Acquiring enough EUV without sanctions would have been difficult as there is a long waiting list.China has touted that they can use exiting and older DUV technology to make chips; however, those were for comparatively simpler chips. Adapting DUV to make 3nm and smaller would require years of R&D at a minimum. 18 months for research and implementation of research is not likely.

那你就错了。就目前的技术而言，需要使用 EUV 机器，而全世界只有 ASML 一家公司生产这种机器。在制裁之前，中国获得了两台这种机器。在没有 ASML 的协助或零件的情况下，这些机器目前的工作状况如何还有待观察。相比之下，台积电每个节点拥有数十台 ASML EUV 机器。由于等待的名单很长，在没有制裁的情况下获得足够的EUV都很困难了。
中国曾吹嘘说，他们可以利用现有的老式 DUV 技术制造芯片；然而，那些都是相对简单的芯片。将 DUV 改造成 3 纳米或更精细的工艺至少需要数年的研发时间。18 个月的研究和实施研究是不可能的。

theendlessnow
Only true if you consider cost as a limiting factor.
If money is no object, the answer is a definite yes, they can.

只有当你把成本作为限制因素时才是这样。
如果钱不是问题，答案是肯定的，他们可以做到。

khchung
What else can Raimondo say? "The sanctions placed on my watch were completely useless and now had the opposite effect"? Or "That was my most shameful moment in my life, we lost"? Not unless she did not mind losing her job.I think the projected sales of the new Huawei Mate60 is something like 30-40 million in the first year. If a few dozen million chips a year is still not "at scale", I am not sure where in the world can produce chips "at scale".

雷蒙多还能说什么呢？“在我眼皮底下实施的制裁毫无用处，现在却产生了反效果”？ 或者“那是我一生中最耻辱的时刻，我们输了”？ 除非她不介意丢掉工作。
我认为新款华为 Mate60 的预计销量是第一年 3000 万到 4000 万左右，如果一年生产几千万片芯片还不算“规模化”，那我就不知道世界上还有哪里能“规模化”生产芯片了。

OffTheLip
as it buried its head back in the sand.

它又把头埋进沙子里了。

ceoyoyo
All the ostriches I've run into have all glared at me with a "step out of line and I'll kill you" look, even the supposedly tame ones. I can only imagine that the idea they were timid came from someone that's never seen one up close.

我遇到的所有鸵鸟都是用一种“你敢越界，我就杀了你”的眼神瞪着我，即使是那些所谓温顺的鸵鸟也不例外。我只能想象，它们胆小的想法是来自一个从未近距离看过鸵鸟的人。

Zolmarchus
...that would be how anyone can possibly contain in their brain the notion "We are trying to use every single tool at our disposal to deny the Chinese the ability to advance their technology" and at the same time retain the ability to be surprised (outraged?) when the other party has the exact same attitude.
I used to think this is just complete lack of self-awareness, egotism, or something along those lines. But now I am starting to think it is mental illness to be this oblivious.Like, are Americans actually lacking an essential part of the normal psyche which would allow for a coherent perception of how humans operate?

......这就像，怎么会有人脑子里存在这种概念“我们正试图利用我们所掌握的一切工具，来剥夺中国人的科技进步能力”的同时，还保留“当对方有完全相同态度”的时候感到惊讶（愤怒？）的能力。
我过去以为这只是完全缺乏自知之明、利己主义或之类的东西。但现在，我开始觉得，如此漠不关心是一种心理疾病。比如，美国人是否真的缺乏正常心理的某个重要组成部分，从而无法连贯地感知人类的行为方式？

TheDarkMaster
Many north-americans have been raised to believe that they "own the world", that they "are the best and smartest on the planet", etc and etc. And then they become enraged when the real world shows them that they are not all that they think they are.

许多北美人从小就相信他们“拥有世界”，他们“是这个星球上最优秀、最聪明的人”诸如此类。当现实世界告诉他们，他们并不是他们所认为的那样时，他们就会被激怒。

nightflameauto
I'm not sure why this got marked troll. It's 100% true. I was raised during one of those generations where we were told, constantly, that America is best at everything, always, and nobody could ever compete with us. If you still believe that rah-rah bullshit by the time you got to high school you were never very inquisitive to begin with. And I graduated right before the Internet became a common thing. It was still impossible to ignore how utterly ludicrous the idea was if you studied any aspect of history, any aspect of where the rest of the world was at the time, or investigated, even a tiny little bit, the claims of our superiority.The only people that still believe America is bestest of the bestest at everything and absolutely owns the world are either completely disconnected from reality, or extremely misinformed.Anybody thinking me noticing we aren't the superior country in the world means I hate America? Piss off. I wish we were. I'd work to make it happen if I had any idea how to fight against the status-quoers who seem convinced that where we are is the best we can be.

我不知道为什么这评论会被标记为“喷子”。这是100%的事实。在我成长的那几代人中，不断有人告诉我们，美国什么都是最好的，永远都是，没有人能够与我们竞争。如果你上高中时还相信这种鬼话，那你一开始就没有什么好奇心。我毕业的时候，互联网还没有普及。如果你研究了历史的任何方面、当时世界其他国家的任何方面，或者哪怕只是调查了一点点关于我们优越性的说法，你仍然不可能忽视这种想法有多么可笑。
唯一仍然相信美国在任何事情上都是最棒的，并且绝对是世界的主人的那些人，要么是完全脱离现实，要么就是信息完全被误导。
有人认为我意识到我们不是世界上最优越的国家就意味着我讨厌美国？滚吧。我希望我们是最好的。如果我知道与那些似乎安于现状的人作斗争的方法，我会努力实现这一目标。

znrt
there has always been a small but dedicated portion of /. users that moderates any inconvenient truth as "troll". it's a knee jerk reaction much in line with precisely the sub-topic in discussion, as they are a hilarious but grim metaphor of the us elite reacting to a changing world.

一直以来，都有一小部分专门的“用户”将任何令人不快的真相视为“喷子”。这是一种本能反应，恰恰与讨论的副主题相符，因为他们是美国精英对不断变化的世界做出反应的一种滑稽而严酷的隐喻。

nightflameauto
I've often heard America described as the only country in the history of the world that went right from barbarism to decadence with no attempt at civilization in between. Having lived through some of the transitory period, I'd say that's pretty apt.

我常听人说，美国是世界历史上唯一一个从野蛮直接走向颓废的国家，中间没有任何文明化的尝试。我经历过那段过渡时期，我认为这句话非常贴切。

khchung
Unfortunately, the majority of Americans are in the above category.

遗憾的是，大多数美国人都属于上述类型。

nightflameauto
What's truly unfortunate is the number of folks who seem to do it as a deliberate choice, rather than out of ignorance. Fantasy is so much more fun than reality.

真正令人遗憾的是，有很多人似乎是故意这么做的，而不是出于无知。幻想比现实有趣得多。

cusco
Americans are the most propagandized people in the world. It's quite amazing the things that they can be made to believe, but that's the magic of the advertising industry I suppose.I remember when I was in college in the '90s that China wanted to update it's ancient creaking telecom system, there was extensive discussion in the industry whether they could raise the $4 billion in foreign exchange to accomplish it. My how things change . . .

美国人是世界上最受宣传的人群。那些让他们相信的事情真的很不可思议，但我想这就是广告业的魔力吧。
我记得 90 年代我还在上大学的那时候，中国想要更新其陈旧摇摇欲坠的电信系统，当时业内广泛讨论他们是否能够筹集到 40 亿美元的外汇来完成这一目标。世事无常啊...

jacks smirking reven
Like it or lump it but the USA has a definite preference for nations that are both liberal democracies and generally participating in the global trade marketplace of capitalism. If China doesn't do things such as continually threating Taiwan, getting into island land disputes with other regional nations, going through with their early takeover of Hong Kong is such public fashion, provoking the US and other navies in the South China Sea and engaging in years of looking the other way regarding the stealing of American company IP the outlook is much different for China today I imagine.
If you don't think this is the case consider the fact that in a hypothetical shooting war between the US and China almost every nation in China's own geographic region is going to side with the US. China isn't making friends with their actions, if anything wariness of them just led Korea and Japan to put aside differences, one step closer to forming a Pacific version of NATO because everyone over there is afraid of China.

不管你喜不喜欢，美国都偏爱那些既是自由民主国家，又普遍参与全球资本主义贸易市场的国家。如果中国不继续威胁台湾（地区）、不与其他地区国家陷入岛屿土地争端、不以如此公众化的方式提前接管香港、不在南海挑衅美国和其他国家的海军，以及多年来对窃取美国公司知识产权的行为不视而不见，我想今天中国的前景会大不一样的。
如果你不这么认为，那么请考虑一下这样的事实：如果美国和中国之间发生假想的热战，中国所在地区的几乎所有国家都会站在美国一边。中国的行为并没有带来朋友，如果说韩国和日本搁置分歧的原因是对中国的戒心，那么他们离组建太平洋版的北约就更近了一步，因为那里的每个国家都害怕中国。

ceoyoyo
Like it or lump it but the USA has a definite preference for nations that are both liberal democracies and generally participating in the global trade marketplace of capitalism.The latter certainly. The former, not really. The US counts as close allies some of the most repressive authoritarian regimes still existing in the world. They've also been responsible for installing a number of distinctly illiberal non-democracies.

“不管你喜不喜欢，美国都偏爱那些既是自由民主国家，又普遍参与全球资本主义贸易市场的国家”
前者，不完全是。美国的亲密盟友中不乏世界上现存的最具压迫性的专制政权。他们还负责建立了许多明显不自由的非民主国家。

dwater
China is not threatening Taiwan. The PRC is threatening the ROC, which is due to the unresolved civil war.Just because the PRC represents China at the UN does not mean China has shrunk and doesn't include Taiwan. When the ROC represented all of China at the UN, it included Taiwan.

中国并没有威胁台湾（地区）。是中华人民共和国威胁中华民国，是因为内战尚未解决。中华人民共和国在联合国代表中国，并不意味着中国已经缩小而不包括台湾。当中华民国在联合国代表全中国的那时，它也包括台湾。

UnknowingFool
As a matter of practicality how does China acquire technology like EUV that is so difficult that only one company in the world makes. The Dutch company, ASML, is the only company that makes EUV machines. The Americans fell behind on the lithography race decades ago. And the Japanese conceded their lead to ASML.

从实际情况来看，中国如何获得像 EUV 这样的高难度技术？荷兰的 ASML 公司是唯一一家生产 EUV 光刻机的企业。几十年前，美国人就在光刻技术的竞争中落后了。日本人将他们的领先地位让给了 ASML。

OrangeTide
You can also get unlicensed ARM and MIPS in China. RISC-V is potentially an attractive architecture when it comes to licensing. But that architecture is not going to be displacing anything "advanced" any time soon.

在中国也可以买到未授权的 ARM 和 MIPS。在授权方面，RISC-V 有可能是一种很有吸引力的架构。但这种架构不会很快取代任何“先进”架构。

mjwx
I suspect like many of China's other "home grown" high tech industries they are highly dependent on importing huge parts of it in from the west. The C919 airliner is largely using US and European components (I.E. Honeywell, Thales, GE/Safran/RR for engines) and assembled in China, their high speed trains are European and imported in CKD (Complete Knock Down) kit.
The idea that China is going to overtake the west is as ludicrous as the notion that the US is the bestest at everything.
Russia has tried for years to copy western tech, they probably wouldn't have had their jet age for years later if the UK didn't sell them the RR Nene engines in the 40s. They didn't even have a high bypass turbofan (as in first seen on the 747) until the mid 80's after several attempts to buy them from the US. Copying tech is a very different beast to developing it.

我怀疑，就像中国许多其他“本土”高科技产业一样，它们也高度依赖西方进口的大量零部件。C919客机主要使用美国和欧洲的零部件（如霍尼韦尔、泰雷兹、通用电气/赛峰/RR的发动机），并在中国组装。他们的高速列车是欧洲进口的CKD(完全拆卸)套件。
认为中国将超越西方的想法，与认为美国在所有方面都是最好的想法一样荒谬。
俄罗斯多年来一直试图复制西方技术，如果不是英国在40年代卖给他们 RR Nene 发动机，他们可能多年后才会迎来喷气式飞机的时代。直到80年代中期，在多次尝试从美国购买之后，他们才拥有了高旁通涡扇发动机（首次出现在 747 上）。复制技术与开发技术是完全不同的。

AmiMoJo
Keep telling yourself that. Meanwhile, here's Huawei's self driving car coping well with chaotic Chinese traffic and blocked intersections: https://youtu.be/yGfpi7TOZ78 [youtu.be]I'm sure it was all stolen from Waymo/Tesla, despite somehow being better than their tech. Note that it's not just the self driving software, they have low cost, high performance LIDAR that they developed too.

继续这样告诉自己吧。与此同时，华为的自动驾驶汽车在中国混乱的交通和堵塞的十字路口应对自如（YouTube链接）
我确信这一切都是从Waymo/特斯拉那里偷来的，尽管在某种程度上比他们的技术更好。请注意，这不仅仅是自动驾驶软件，他们还开发了低成本、高性能的激光雷达。

sinij
Why Huawei's 7nm Chip Isn't a Big Chinese Breakthrough [youtube.com]. I found his analysis to be informative.

为什么华为的7纳米芯片不是中国的重大突破（YouTube链接）。我觉得他的分析很有参考价值。

Anonymous Coward
You'll have better success guessing a coin-flip than Peter Zeihan has with his analysis on China.

比起彼得•泽汉（Peter Zeihan）对中国的分析，你猜硬币正反面的成功率会更高。

DrMrLordX
but why listen to the Commerce Secretary? There are industry sources that are better-able to comment on the situation than her.

但为什么要听商务部长的呢？有一些业内人士比她更能对当前形势发表评论。

cusco
But she's the official spokescritter for the US government, she could never be wrong, could she? /sarcasm

但她是美国政府的官方发言人，她永远不会错的，是吧？/狗头

Locke2005
Never underestimate China's ability to steal technology from US firms!

永远不要低估中国从美国企业窃取技术的能力！

guacamole
Yeah, they're stealing technology so fast that Huawei somehow was able to implement 5G networks first in the world.

是啊，他们窃取技术的速度快得让华为不知何故在全球率先实现了5G网络。

znrt
easy, first you steal the schematics for the time machine, then you just download everything else from the future.

很简单，你得先偷到时光机的原理图，然后你就可以下载未来的所有东西。

cusco
Your meme is a bit outdated. China graduated more engineers and scientists last year than the rest of the world combined, and they also filed more patents than any other country. The days when China copied foreign firms are rapidly passing, the US is soon going to be copying Chinese designs.

你的说法有点过时了。中国去年毕业的工程师和科学家比世界其他国家的总和还要多，他们申请的专利也比任何其他国家都多。中国仿制外国企业的时代正在迅速褪去，美国很快就会仿制中国的设计。

anoncoward69
Or we'll continue to buy them as we've been doing for some time. We'll only have to smuggle them in and copy them when they stop selling to the US

或者，我们将一如既往向他们买东西。只有当他们停止向美国出售的时候，我们才需要走私并仿制他们。

larryjoe
Hmm, I'm not sure that is true. It's hard to find consistent numbers, but India also produces a large number of college graduates each year. China and India each produce more college graduates each year than the US. However, it's not clear how well China and India are able to utilize those graduates and how much those graduates contribute toward each country's economy and scientific advancement. China has been having great challenges finding employment for its most recent graduates, and India's economy is still ramping up. There's still a reason that hundreds of thousands of Chinese and Indian students go to US universities and not the other way around.

嗯... 我不确定这是真的。很难找到一致的数字，但印度每年也培养出大量的大学毕业生。中国和印度每年培养的大学毕业生人数都比美国多。然而，中国和印度对这些毕业生的利用率如何，以及这些毕业生对两国经济和科学进步的贡献有多大，目前还不清楚。中国在为应届毕业生就业方面一直面临巨大挑战，而印度的经济仍在不断增长。成千上万的中国和印度学生进入美国大学学习，而不是反过来，这仍然是有原因的。

sxpert
the main issue is that the US population is pretty badly educated, and half of them can't read something somewhat complicated

主要问题是，美国民众的教育水平很低，一半人读不懂稍微复杂的东西

SuperDre
Never underestimate US companies abilities to steal from Chinese companies. Don't act as if the US is any better. They even need to put sanctions in place because they are getting behind, and reality is, most of the chips designed aren't even designed by americans, but asians and europeans working for US companies.

永远不要低估美国企业从中国企业那里偷窃的能力。别以为美国会好到哪里去。由于他们已经落后了，他们甚至需要实施制裁，而现实情况是，大多数芯片甚至都不是美国人设计的，而是在美国企业工作的亚洲人和欧洲人。

dwater
The west in general and the USA in particular has a big hang up when it comes to copying. I guess it's something to do with the patent system which is almost totally broken and/or dysfunctional. As the prophet Musk puts it, patents are for losers ie those who are slow and/or lazy.
Copying is the best way to advance technology and developing countries have been doing that pretty much without any penalty for a long time, including the USA. In fact, the things the USA treasures most were invented in China, or at least are derived from - guns (gun powder) and money (paper money) to name just two.

西方国家，尤其是美国，在仿制方面有很大的障碍。我想这与几乎完全崩溃/功能失调的专利制度有关。正如先知马斯克所说，专利是给失败者（即那些反应迟钝/懒惰的人）准备的。
仿制是推动技术进步的最佳途径，发展中国家长期以来一直在这样做，没有受到任何惩罚，美国也不例外。事实上，美国最珍视的东西都是中国发明的，或者至少是从中国衍生出来，只举两个例子：枪支（火药）和货币（纸币）。

aldousd666
Of me being right. Trade wars don't contain whole economies, they inspire them to go around any barriers we try to erect. And with bad blood to boot. Governments never learn. This 'containment' of tech via sanctions is the silliest stupidest idea governments have tried since plowing crops under ground in order to 'stimulate' the economy.

我是对的。贸易战并不能遏制整个经济体，只会激发他们绕过我们试图设置的任何壁垒。而且还会带着仇恨。政府永远不会吸取教训。这种通过制裁来“遏制”科技的做法，是政府为了“刺激”经济而在地下耕种以来，尝试过的最愚蠢透顶的点子。

cusco
"One thing that we learn from history is that our leaders rarely learn anything from history." - historian Barbara Tuchman in 'The March of Folly'

“我们从历史中学到的一件事是，我们的领导人很少从历史中学到任何东西。”
——历史学家芭芭拉·塔奇曼在《愚政进行曲》中写道

stabiesoft
Now that is a great quote. Hope someone upmods you.

这是一句很棒的名言。希望有人能给你点赞。

znrt
the government is just a tool for a bunch of hyper rich motherfuckers that run this planet. once you realize that simple fact, a lot of really weird stuff suddenly makes a lot of sense. it's a miracle we aren't extinct already. or a curse, not sure.

政府只是一群超级有钱的混蛋统治这个星球的工具。一旦你意识到这个简单的事实，很多非常奇怪的事情就突然变得很有意义了。我们还没有灭绝真是个奇迹。或者是诅咒，我不确定。

guacamole
How is 7nm Chinese chip is going to hurt USA? But 10nm will not?

7纳米的中国芯片怎么就伤害美国了？但10纳米就不会伤害了吗？

OrangeTide
It hurts our feelings.

它伤害了我们的感情。

Cultureofone
The USA in particular has a very bad habit of claiming entitlement to what does not yet exist.
The future.
Always struck me as an odd concept to claim entitlement in reference to something non-existent.

尤其是美国，有一个非常糟糕的习惯，那就是声称有权获得尚不存在的东西。
未来。
我一直觉得，用不存在的东西来宣称权利是一个很奇怪的概念。

ceoyoyo
You might want to buy a phone with a 7 nm chip in it, but you'd probably choose a competitor over one with a 10 nm chip.

你可能会想买一部采用7纳米芯片的手机，但如果是10纳米的手机，你可能会选择竞争对手的。

UnknowingFool
Considering Apple's newest phone uses 3nm A17 chips and their last 7nm phone CPU (A13) was 4 years ago, it is not likely people can will get new Apple phones with 7nm much less 10nm chips (iPhone 8's A11). On the Android side, Samsung last flagship that used a 10nm chip was the Galaxy S9 (2018) and the last 7nm phone was the Samsung Galaxy S20 (released 2020). People can buy phones with 7nm chips but the CPUs are getting very old and 10nm chips are ancient in CPU age.

考虑到苹果最新手机使用的是3纳米的A17芯片，而上一款7纳米CPU(A13)的手机已经是4年前的产品了，人们不太可能买到使用7纳米芯片的苹果新手机，更不用说10纳米芯片(A11)的iPhone 8了。在安卓系统方面，三星上一款使用10纳米芯片的旗舰机是 Galaxy S9（2018 年），上一款7纳米芯片的手机是三星 Galaxy S20（2020 年发布）。人们可以买到7纳米芯片的手机，但CPU已经非常过时了，而10纳米芯片在CPU时代已经作古了。

ceoyoyo
Most people don't buy flagship phones. The market for the non-bleeding edge is pretty big, and pretty lucrative for a rising country like China.Yes, the US seems to be determined to deny China not only the high end market but also the middle. Or maybe they just want everyone to have no choice but to use American or Korean phones. For reasons.

大多数人都不买旗舰手机。对中国这样一个正在崛起的国家来说，普通性能的手机市场相当大，利润也相当丰厚。是的，美国似乎决心不仅要剥夺中国的高端市场，还要剥夺中国的中端市场。或许他们只是想让每个人都别无选择，只能使用美国或韩国的手机。出于某些原因。

UnknowingFool
Please show me which phones are using 4-5 year old processors. Even Apple has upgraded their entire line such that the oldest CPU is the A15 which is 2 years old. As for non-bleeding edge in China, you are aware that sanctions would prevent most phone CPUs from entering the country even 7nm and 10nm right?

请告诉我哪些手机使用的是4-5年前的处理器。即使是苹果也对其整个产品线进行了升级，最老的CPU是2年前的A15。至于中国的普通性能手机，制裁会阻止大多数手机CPU进入中国，即使是7纳米和10纳米，这你知道的吧？

ceoyoyo
Lol. I'm not going to go and look up CPU processes by phone to find you examples. Google "Samsung S20" (one of your examples) and you'll find lots for sale.

哈哈。我不打算通过手机查找CPU工艺来给你例子。谷歌搜索“Samsung S20”（你的例子之一），你会找到很多手机在出售。

sanf780
I still do remember the report few years back that showed how several microchip server boards have been modified in such a way rely information to China. As far as I know, it was all fantasy at the time and nobody else confirmed that claim yet. It is hard to build trust once you lost it.

我还记得几年前的一篇报道，写着几块微芯片服务器板被改装以向中国提供信息。据我所知，这在当时只是天方夜谭，目前还没有其他人证实这一说法。一旦失去信任，就很难再建立起来了。

dsgrntlxmply
That was a 2018 Bloomberg report claiming inner layer buried spy chips in Super Micro motherboards. No evidence was given, only claims and hearsay.

那是2018年彭博社的一篇报道，称超微主板内层埋有间谍芯片。没有给出证据，只有声称和传闻。

ceoyoyo
Seems about right. I'm sure China is doing some of this stuff, but they seem to be much better at it since the evidence usually amounts to "secret intelligence assessment says." On the other hand, the US and American companies get caught red handed over and over.

看起来是这样。我相信中国也在做一些类似的事情，但他们似乎做得更好，因为证据通常只有“秘密情报评估显示”。
而反观美国和美国公司，一次又一次被抓个正着。

The Evil Atheist
Concerns about human rights, industrial espionage, etc are just a sideshow. The REAL goal is simply to keep Chinese people down.
Let that be a warning to India, and upstart African countries. The US will intentionally cripple you if you dare try to improve to unacceptably high living standards.

对人权、工业间谍等问题的关注只是小插曲。真正的目的只是为了压制中国人民。
这是对印度和非洲后起国家的警告。如果你们胆敢将生活水平提高到让美国无法接受的程度，他们就会特意削弱你们。

louzer
I have noticed all White majority nations are very jealous when a non-White majority nation excels. Before Plaza Accords against Japan, and the stealing of intellectual property from Japan, USA hated Japan too. And now that Japan has bent its knee once again, Americans love Japan.

我注意到，当一个非白人为主的国家表现出色时，所有白人为主的国家都会非常嫉妒。在针对日本的《广场协议》和窃取日本知识产权之前，美国也讨厌日本。现在日本再次跪下，美国人就喜欢日本了。

The Evil Atheist
Also when non-white minorities in their own countries excel.
In the US, there were the Tulsa riots, where lazy whites were jealous of the success of the nearby black neighbourhood, so they destroyed their neighbourhood.
In Australia, there were the Lambing Flats riots where lazy whites were angry that Chinese miners worked a bit harder, and had success finding gold in the mines that lazy whites left behind. Then Australia instituted the White Australia Policy, to safeguard white laziness.
For all the talk of "neo-colonialism", it is still the West engaging in it, jealous when non-white peoples find success, so they outright cripple them.

同样，当自己国家的非白人少数民族表现出色的时候，也是如此。
在美国，曾发生过塔尔萨大屠杀，懒惰白人嫉妒附近黑人社区的成功，于是他们摧毁了这些黑人社区。
在澳大利亚，曾发生过兰宾平原反华暴乱，懒惰白人对中国矿工更加努力工作，并在懒惰白人留下的矿井中成功找到黄金感到愤怒。随后，澳大利亚制定了“白澳政策”，以保护懒惰白人。
尽管人们一直在谈论“新殖民主义”，但西方国家仍然从事其中，当非白人取得成功时，他们就会嫉妒，从而彻底削弱这些人。

The Evil Atheist
Some butthurt moron downvoting us for stating the facts.

一些傻逼因为我们陈述了事实，给点了踩。

UnknowingFool
Considering the US is more than happy to keep supporting Taiwan (an island full of Chinese), I would say your grasp of "facts" is suspect to reality.

考虑到美国非常乐意继续支持台湾（一个满是中国人的岛屿），我想说你对“事实”的把握与现实不符。

The Evil Atheist
If you think the support of Taiwan is out of the goodness of their hearts, then YOUR grasp of facts is non-existent.

如果你认为支持台湾是出于好心，那么你对事实的把握就是零了。

groobly
She is an idiot. Or at least a liar.

她（雷蒙多）就是个白痴。或者至少是个骗子。